Talk:Major religious groups

Should be renamed " (non) Current Major religious groups"

The article is about religious groups now. Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Babylonian religions where also major in their time.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2024

requesting straight-forward changes like grammar, spelling, formatting Nii inin (talk) 08:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC) requesting more substantive changes, if they are justified with reference to reliable sources, and not the subject of ongoing discussion

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 13:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Judaism founding time and entity.

This section is sorely in need of genuine subject-matter-experts, i.e., scholars, especially Rabbis, rather than Christianized or politicized observers. Furthermore, the Encyclopedia Britannica is head-and-shoulders superior scholarship on all matters religious.

Judaism was founded before the split of the kingdom of David to Israel and Judea, and actually before the kingdom of David.r It was probably before 1000 BCE. 93.173.32.199 (talk) 07:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Nope, that is Yahwism, not Judaism. Judaism appeared after the 6th century BCE. David and Solomon were not believers of Judaism. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree, can you point to sources supporting this theory ? 93.173.32.199 (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

See the WP:SOURCES WP:CITED in both articles. That Judaism existed in the 10th century BCE is WP:FRINGE pseudohistory.

E.g. see David P Mindell (2009). The Evolving World. Harvard University Press. p. 224. ISBN 978-0-674-04108-0. And that's a generous estimate, since newer research by Yonatan Adler says that the religion of Torah-observance appeared in the 2nd century BCE. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Shinto founding date

It seems misleading to state Shinto was founded in the 19th century. State Shinto was, but Shinto as an overall religious belief system extends far earlier than that, plus that is not really a wholly accurate descriptor of Shinto today. Uncritically stating this date would be like saying Judaism was founded in the 18th-19th century, as that's when Hasidic, Conservative, and Reform Judaism all came about.

Specifically, the 19th century date seems to be referring to shinbutsu bunri, a policy of removing Buddhist influences from Shintoism and strengthening nationalist influences, shifting power away from the Buddhist clergy and towards the emperor. This was never fully implemented, although it definitely partially occurred, and crucially, the emperor cult and more extreme nationalist elements were somewhat reversed after WW2, so given these revisions, even if we took a more restrictive definition (inconsistent with how other religions are treated), then the date should be 20th century.

I'd argue the best dates to give would be either the 3rd century (end of the Yayoi period), or 6th-8th century (Asuka period), you could also make an argument for the Nara period (8th century). I'd contend the 6th-8th century date makes the most sense, as although Buddhism and Shinto are considered separate religions in Japan today, for much of Shinto history they were linked together as one sort of unique combined religion, and that led to a lot of development and lasting impact on Shinto which remained up to the present day.

Alternatively we could treat Shinto like the "Largest religious groups" table, and not specify the date of it's founding. 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:C58A:D4DA:C1EE:7895 (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I think some of these points have considerable merit, but we also have to be careful about avoiding original research with complex interwoven topics like this. Are there reliable sources that posit earlier "founding dates"? Remsense ‥ 论 20:10, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Very fair.

Here is a page from Encyclopædia Britannica - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shinto, written by a professor of Shinto Studies from Kokugakuin University, and fact checked by the editors. It gives all of these dates, and other dates too.

A page from Stanford University - https://spice.fsi.stanford.edu/docs/japanese_religions#1 mentioning the sixth century

There is Shinto: A History, a book by Helen Hardacre - (ISBN 9780190621711), if you're taking the 6th century date, then probably page 28 onwards makes most sense.

Hopefully one or a combination of these sources would work? I do welcome criticism and alternative sources and dates too though. 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:C58A:D4DA:C1EE:7895 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

An additional statement, but I think our sourcing for Shinto presently is weak and inaccurate, at least in comparison to the three sources I provided.

The first source is to "Adherents.com", which appears defunct and now a domain owned by some unrelated magazine. From the archive.org copy of the site from when it was cited, I can tell you very little about it. It was made by a guy called Preston Hunter, who is apparently a computer programmer in Texas. This appeared to be a personal independent hobby of his. That source says nothing about when Shinto was founded, and claims it only has 4 million followers. However, it doesn't give its source for that fact clearly.

The second source, is a 2006 US Department of State report on Japan, is where I think we are getting the 100 million followers figure from, as it states "Of citizens who claimed a faith, 51 percent were Shinto", noting that "213,826,661 citizens claimed a religion", that latter figure however, is about double the figure they give for Japan's population, which they note, and state "reflected many citizens' affiliation with multiple religions, particularly Shintoism and Buddhism. Many citizens practiced both Buddhist and Shinto rites. Furthermore, membership statistics kept by the agency were based on self-reports from various religious organizations."

Given their figure for Japan's population was 128 million, at most they can be suggesting there are 65 million followers, I say "at most" because this assumes no citizen in Japan is atheist.

So we also have an issue for the figure we are quoting for Shinto. The 100 million followers figure is not supported by either of the two sources we give, and I feel like the Adherents.com source should be discarded as effectively unverifiable in its reliability. 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:C58A:D4DA:C1EE:7895 (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I would generally agree that the current date is wildly incorrect, and pretty much any pre 9th-century date would be vastly superior. Perhaps the "19th-century" date is a missing reading of the second citation, which mentions the rise of Tenrikyo in the 1830s. Our article on Shinto is rather well-written and sourced; it makes clear that any founding dates are debated, thus we could include a 6th century date, but I would also insist on a few words of caution: "Exact origin debated; prominent by the 6th-century", or something similar. Aza24 (talk) 05:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems good. Maybe "prominent by the 6th century" with a little note stating "Exact origin debated" and perhaps a little elaboration? Maybe this would be a good option?

Japan, prominent by the 9th century^a

:^a Exact origin is debated. Yama worship dates back to the 300BC-300AD. Shinbutsu-shūgō (Buddhist syncretism) occurred through the 6th century. Shinbutsu bunri (partial separation from Buddhism) and transformation into State Shinto occurred in the 19th century, which ended as Japan transitioned into a secular state after World War Two.

2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:D106:D569:3F90:4CAF (talk) 12:00, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

"Folk Religion"

This is my other issue with the page, alongside the Shinto Founding date in the above section.

"Folk Religion" is a somewhat vague term that can mean and include various things, it's also not one religious group, but more a "most but not all others" grouping.

That grouping is odd and kind of needs elaboration if we are using it, but also it's also worth questioning the benefit of this grouping in the page, because that grouping from my understanding is overwhelmingly made up Chinese folk religion. The Pew Research page cited notes how 73% of the world's folk religionists by their figures are from China. While I could see an argument for a grouping of the many smaller folk religions into a catch-all group, it seems disingenuous to not list Chinese folk religion separately. Folk religions are fundamentally different faiths, and it is merely a convenience to have a catch-all category, but I don't think that's worth neglecting to identify a unique folk religion who alone can comprise a "major religious group".

Furthermore, if you cite the demographics section of the Chinese folk religion page, sources there give a higher estimate for CFR alone as opposed to Pew's worldwide figure, somewhere between 0.5-1 billion people it'd seem.

Finally, we rightfully mention Musok (listed here as 'mu-ism') as a medium-sized religious group, which it is. It's also a folk religion. It's a diverse, traditional ('folk') religious tradition without a central authority (or, to my knowledge, extensively adopted and standardised religious texts). It's a folk religion, and generally classified as such. I assume the Pew source is including this in their figures, given they explicitly name North Korea in their list of a few countries with the largest folk religion populations.

2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:C58A:D4DA:C1EE:7895 (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

My response here is same as your previous concern: it's best to start with what sources say and what categories they speak in. Remsense ‥ 论 20:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Just posted my reply to my concern around Shinto. I was a little delayed as I was writing the first post for this section and then gathering sources to reply to you with.

I felt it was best to do it as two sections though, as they're separate issues.

As for sources for this section -

Firstly, with regards to Musok, the Pew research page we are using for Folk Religions pretty plainly names North Korea, which to my knowledge could only refer to Musok - which on the Musok page we mention a source ([1]) quoting it's population in North Korea (giving a pop'n 3,846,000 vs. Pew's 3,010,000 figure for North Korean listed on our source for Folk Religion here).

Secondly, on the topic of Chinese Folk Religion, you have Yang and Hu (2012) or the China Family Panel Studies source we cite on the page here, which I cannot read as I don't speak Chinese, but if we do have an editor around who can read Chinese we could verify the statement on the Chinese folk religion page we are attributing to it, which claims about 1 billion people. There is also the Purdue University Source (Religions & Christianity in Today's China. II.3 (2012) ISSN 2192-9289) we mention which gives a figure of 0.7 billion (with a caveat about belief vs. practice).

What are your thoughts? 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:C58A:D4DA:C1EE:7895 (talk) 21:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking about the 73% statement, and I think the issue with it is how non-elucidating it is: it's in large part a reminder that gee, China sure is a populous country. That is to say, I really agree that a catch-all of folk religion is uninformative at best, even if the term exists for a reason and isn't really harmful as such. That's the issue with broad concept articles like these I guess—there's no ability to achieve depth in such a broad survey, so we end up either with a total patchwork with no connective tissue or a very bland survey that is capable of saying almost nothing in itself. If I can flash a hint of cynicism, I would look at other articles before this one if you're interested in really raking the muck and fixing representation issues onwiki, if that makes sense. Not at all to discourage you if you do want to work on this one, I just fear there's not really an "ideal version" of this article we can build, and if there is that time would've been better spent improving articles such as Folk religion, for example. Sorry, I've failed you! Remsense ‥ 论 21:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh I agree there's probably not an ideal true version of this article, but I do think we can still always be aiming to improve it.

If I'm to give a specific actionable recommendation, I'd suggest that Chinese Folk Religion should be mentioned separately as it's own entry too.

This will mean the double-counting issue we already have by listing Musok will remain, perhaps a little note next to the general folk religion entry might be able to note that, but at least we aren't neglecting to mention a major religious group.

Hopefully in the future we might be able to get a better source than the Pew one we are currently citing, though I can't really find a better one at present.

As an IP user however, I cannot make the change myself.

2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:D106:D569:3F90:4CAF (talk) 12:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 September 2024

Firstly

In the Medium-sized religions table, in the entry for Shinto, change the text for Founded from "Japan, 19th century" to "Japan, prominent by the 9th century^a"

^ Exact origin is a subject of debate. Yama worship dates back to the 300BC-300AD. Shinbutsu-shūgō (Buddhist syncretism) occurred through the 6th century. Shinbutsu bunri (partial separation from Buddhism) and transformation into State Shinto occurred in the 19th century, which ended as Japan transitioned into a secular state after World War Two.

As supported by the following sources:

• https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shinto
• https://spice.fsi.stanford.edu/docs/japanese_religions#1
• Shinto: A History, by Helen Hardacre, 2016, ISBN 9780190621711

Additionally remove the adherents.com source currently used as one of the two sources for Shinto, as it's a defunct personal website with no means to verify it's accuracy or reliability, and is not clear about which sources it gathered its information on Shinto from.

And correct the number of follows of Shinto to 89 million - referencing this source: https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-report-on-international-religious-freedom/japan/ (note: the existing 100 million figure seems to be a misinterpretation of the less explicit and clear figure from the current 2008 Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor source, more explanation given in talk page). 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:141:1F1D:A962:640B (talk) 11:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)