Talk:Extreme metal

Sludge?

User:ABC paulista, you have reverted my edit with the edit summary of "Sludge metal is a Doom metal subgenre/fusion genre, which is an extreme metal act". Please provide me with an expert WP:RELIABLE source that states that sludge is a subgenre of doom. William Harris (talk) 06:19, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

William Harris, there are plenty of sources that relate Sludge metal to Doom metal in their respective articles, like Allmusic and Rolling Stones, for example. I don't see exactly what the issue is, but are you implying that they aren't related? ABC paulista (talk) 13:10, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

User:ABC paulista, I am trying to get towards the facts. Maybe sludge is a form of extreme metal and maybe it isn't - that is why we are both here on this page, to clarify.

You have provided two sources. Allmusic appears to have no author and states that doom had an influence on sludge. The rolling stone article has an author but introduces a new term called "dirty Sludge Doom", whatever that term implies. Neither article has stated that sludge metal is a Doom metal subgenre/fusion genre, as has been inferred. Google Books will offer access to a number of books on Extreme Metal, none mention sludge metal. It also gives access to a number of books on sludge metal, none claim that it is a subgenre of doom but they will imply an influence - with little or no description of what that influence was. Nor can I find any of the doom books claiming sludge as a subgenre. Access to Heavy Metal books will state that both doom and sludge are sub-genres of heavy metal. Wikipedia is built by editors being able to WP:CITE expert WP:RELIABLE sources that other editors can WP:VERIFY. In this case I am not seeing it. Please respond to my reasonable request above or please revert your reversions of my edits. I am about to begin a rewrite of the sludge metal article - with solid WP:SECONDARY sourcing - and this matter needs to be resolved first. William Harris (talk) 20:34, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

No, you're wrong here in both accounts. in the Allmusic source (which is considered reliable regardless of having no author, since it's only one part of the sourcing per WP:SOURCE and its lack doesn't invalidade the source per se, per WP:CITEHOW) they clearly state that "Sludge metal was the name given to the sound played on a unique doom metal scene centered in New Orleans", thus Sludge being a subtype of doom (the wording doesn't need to be exactly the same if the idea is the same, otherwise we could fall into WP:YTCOPYRIGHT), and the Rolling Stones one only use "dirty" as an adjective and "Sludge doom" as a noun, since dirty is an adjective often used to describe the Sludge metal's sound. But there are more: Jonathan Piper's "Locating experiential richness in doom metal" does include Sludge metal as one of the Doom styles it discuss, stating that it is "The result is a combination of the aggressiveness, particularly in the vocals, and structural variability of hardcore punk and thrash metal (in their juxtapositions of fast and slow or fast and faster) with the laidbackness, downtuned guitars, modal riffing and overall darkness and heaviness of doom metal." David Burke's Political Expression in Doom Metal directly includes Sludge metal as a Doom subgenre, stating that it "represents a crossover between doom metal and hardcore punk." And Arne Ebner's Ästhetik des Doom also includes Sludge metal inside Doom metal's subgenre's section and discuss its imagery throughout the whole study. And more, on Banger TV's Lock Horns, Sam Dunn and invited experts discuss Sludge metal as a Doom subgenre in both episodes that discuss Doom metal and Sludge metal. ABC paulista (talk) 14:19, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello User:ABC paulista and a Happy New Year! Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

1. To recap: This Extreme Metal article lists Sludge Metal as an Extreme Metal genre. The reasoning behind this is because Doom Metal is an Extreme Metal genre (to which I agree), and because Sludge Metal has been influenced by Doom Metal (to which I agree), this infers that Sludge Metal is an Extreme Metal sub-genre (on this inference I have sought validation on this Talk page).

2. I have asked for a reference which directly states that Sludge is a subgenre of Extreme, and that has not been provided (I believe we both agree on this, it cannot be found).

3. You have provided a number of sources stating that Doom was an influence on Sludge, or Sludge is a cross-over between Doom and Punk - I have not queried that. I query the inference that therefore Sludge is a Doom subgenre.

Regarding the Allmusic reference, a fuller quote is: The '90s also birthed a unique doom metal scene centered in New Orleans; the sound of bands like Crowbar and Eyehategod was often described as "sludge metal" because of their heavy debt to early Seattle grunge bands like the Melvins and Soundgarden. Several doom metal bands incorporated progressive tendencies, though this approach was much less widespread. This indicates to me that the doom metal scene in New Orleans was incorporating sludge influences from Seattle, so much so that two bands in New Orleans were described (by whom?) as "sludge metal". I do not read this as inferring that "thus Sludge being a subtype of doom" as you put it. Especially when numerous sources state that the Melvins were the first sludge band; this would leave New Orleans importing early sludge from Seattle for its own further development. The article is not clear and open to interpretation. We are trying to provide an encyclopaedia, and I believe everything used here needs to be clear. (According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, Allmusic is "usable for entertainment reviews with attribution" i.e. who said it - the article in question does not do that.)

Regarding the Rolling Stones reference, a fuller quote is: They mixed their musical roots with the raw intensity of hardcore to create dirty Sludge Doom. You have interpreted this to mean that sludge is a subgenre of doom, rather than reading it as a newly created crossover of Sludge-Doom. The article is also not clear and provides no further elaboration. Sludge was also influenced by Punk, and Sludge has also been referred to as "Punk Sludge" or "Sludge Punk" in some sources, particularly relating to the Melvins, which you can Google yourself, including in Google Books. This does not make Sludge a subgenre of Punk; or perhaps it does - I would be interested in your thoughts?

The next 3 of your references is about influence or cross-over, already covered above and this is not debated.

Regarding the Youtube video on "Stoner and Sludge Metal" that you referred me to, nobody in that clip claimed that Sludge was a subgenre of Doom. Within the first minute they talked about addressing the genre that was about to be included on the "heavy metal tree" and this was Stoner Metal, and later they included Sludge as a sister genre. Additionally, I do not believe that viewers voting whether they believe that a band should fit under a Stoner or Sludge label and then have a music journalist agree or disagree is useful ; especially when the journalist can be outvoted by the viewers. Not to mention this was a waste of 52 minutes of my life - I have no intention of sitting through the referred 40 minutes of the "Doom Metal" Youtube video as that will be just more of the same.

"Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" says WP:EXTRAORDINARY, and by that I would expect to see multiple secondary sources making clear, explicit statements rather than an inferences based on 2 poorly-articulated articles of which the meaning is not clear and with no further elaboration. I have seen nothing here that convinces me that Sludge is a sub-genre of Doom, and therefore my position remains that Sludge should not be regarded as an Extreme Metal cross-over with Punk in this article. William Harris (talk) 04:06, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, I'll keep your way to organize this discussion since it seems to better organize the many topics it spawned:

1. No. It's because Sludge Metal is a Doom Metal fusion-genre, this infers that Sludge Metal is an Extreme Metal subgenre. Unfortunately, there aren't any reliable source here that discuss each subgenre/fusion-genre in depth, so there isn't any means of selecting which subgenres should be considered extreme without failing WP:OR. So there was two options: Include all subgenres and fusions in the article, because of their relation to the main subgenres, or to exclude them all. Maybe we could come with a better selection process, any ideas?

2. Actually it can be found, but most sources come from Webzines, which usually aren't considered reliable or could be used as supplementary sourcing at best.

3.1.1. About the usage of Allmusic as reference, the "attribution" statement doesn't mean anything close to what you stated. The "attribution" remark links to WP:INTEXT, which states that Allmusic must be cited on the phrase/paragraph its referencing. The sentence must be attributed to its source, so it can be from either the author or from the publisher. The guideline doesn't make distinction.

3.1.2. About the Allmusic reference itself, honestly I don't even know how you came with such interpretation, since it directly stated that the name "Sludge" was an homage to early Seattle Grunge bands that were used as influences for the Doom metal style that developed in New Orleans. It never stated that Sludge metal came from Seattle, and the fact that the Melvins could be considered to be the first Sludge metal band doesn't mean that there was a Sludge metal scene in Seattle (one or two bands don't make a scene, and it's supposed existance was never acknowledged on the source), but it does state that a doom metal scene centered in New Orleans was birthed (thus being the first one of its kind) and its sound was dubbed "Sludge metal". But to the subject in hand here, it doesn't matter from where Sludge metal came from or where it was popular.

3.2.1. About the Rolling Stone reference, at the end of the first paragraph on the "The fragmentation" section, it's stated that "This opening of the sound spectrum, as it was done by Cathedral, is symptomatic of Doom: Although the young musicians continued to use the rock bands of the early seventies as models, the way of interpreting them changed. The result: Countless sub-genres emerged, among which there were partly contradicting views on what the "only true Doom" should sound like", and then it goes to describe these subgenres, with one of them being the Sludge doom. It never infers that a "Sludge genre standalone" exist, and does directly states that Sludge comes from a fusion with Hardcore (Punk).

3.2.2. About Sludge metal being considered a subgenre of Punk, I don't see why it shoudn't be, since Sludge is a fusion-genre from (primarly) Doom metal and Hardcore Punk, and a fusion-genre is usually considered a subgenre of its parent genres. Some of them grows out enough to be considered its own thing, detached from its main sources (like Back metal and Death metal detached from Thrash metal, or Gothic metal detached form Death/doom), but I don't see any evidence that the same happened with Sludge metal. Although the names "Sludge metal" and Sludge doom" does imply a bigger relation to Doom metal and to the Heavy metal family than to Hardcore Punk, here in Wikipedia it is listed as one of the fusion-genres at the Hardcore's article and template, and AFAIK it's possible to be considered a subgenre to multiple genres simultaneously.

3.3. About the Jonathan Piper's reference, on the "The Fragmentation of Doom" section, he states that "The first few years of the 90s saw the release of numerous recordings in myriad styles of doom. In what follows, I offer an overview of these offshoots, which collectively comprise the majority of doom metal practice and thus provide a comprehensive sense of the subgenre’s variety.", and them later on the section he went to describe Sludge: "Where traditional doom finds musicians reaching back to an imagined uniformity of style to counteract an explosion of variation, sludge doom (or sludge metal) was consciously created out of a mixture of styles and influences. Sludge developed primarily in New Orleans (NOLA) out of the introduction of the slower music of Melvins and late Black Flag to the local hardcore punk and thrash metal scene, which itself had been influenced by the blues-based style of southern rock. As told by Phil Anselmo, singer of thrash metal band Pantera, the slowness of these recordings encouraged musicians in the scene to experiment with slowing down themselves. This, in turn, led to an exploration of the back catalogue of doom: “With that, all the old Black Sabbath came back around and then you start digging and you come to your Saint Vitus, your Witchfinder General, your Pentagram, etc” (Bennett 2009, 268). The result is a combination of the aggressiveness, particularly in the vocals, and structural variability of hardcore punk and thrash metal (in their juxtapositions of fast and slow or fast and faster) with the laidbackness, downtuned guitars, modal riffing and overall darkness and heaviness of doom metal." Since Sludge metal is described inside the section he uses to describe the Doom metal subgenres, it's clear that the subgenre status is valid.

3.4. About the David Burke's reference, he states that "For the purposes of this study, ‘doom metal’ will also be used to encompass its varied subgenres which together draw from similar compositional and aesthetic sources and are often grouped together by critics and fans. ‘Stoner metal’ is heavily influenced by psychedelia and is arguably themost fantastical of the doom sub-subgenres; ‘drone metal’ often forgoes percussion in favour of walls of droning, feedback-laden guitars; ‘sludge metal’ represents a crossover between doom metal and hardcore punk; and ‘desert rock’ blends the psychedelic aspects of stoner metal with a moretraditional hard rock sonic palette." This one is very clear about Sludge metal's status as a Doom subgenre.

3.5. About the Arne Ebner's reference, on the "Sound & Styles" section, where he uses to describe all Doom metal subgenres, he dedicates a whole subsection to describe Sludge metal: For the style of music that emerged in the late 80s and is made up of hardcore, punk, grunge, southern rock and doom, you probably couldn't have found a better name. First played by the American band Melvins and further developed in the New Orleans area, the sludge always has a dark and aggressive undertone. Sludge is dirty, uncompromising and full of energy. Slow, Doom-inspired passages alternate with fast, undisguised hardcore riffs that are beaten from lower-pitched guitars. Sludge bands sound broken, depressed and always fat. The warm sound that characterizes Doom is given an unpleasant note with extremely distorted guitars and shrill feedback. Breakdowns and time changes ensure a varied song structure, drummers vary their play between typical Doom rhythms and hardcore beat interludes. The singing consists primarily of yelling and screaming, typical song themes are drug abuse, suffering, addiction, politics and anger towards society. Some bands use film samples and sound experiments to provide additional background to their sound, and it is not uncommon for them to touch the limits of good taste. Later, when he interviews Malte Seidel, singer of the band "Black Shape of Nexus" and asks him about the symbolism used by Doom bands, he answers that "You would first have to make a distinction between the individual genres. This is how Sludge looks different from Traditional Doom. Traditional often uses photos of crumbling buildings like churches. Curved lettering and upside-down crosses are of course also very popular. So roughly the Black Sabbath Corner. And with Sludge, it comes more from hardcore and punk, it's more about self-destruction, more collages and illustrations are used." And at the conclusion, Ebner states that "The visual language of Doom is diverse. The personal background and the zeitgeist influence the basic design. An avant-garde band like Sunn O))) seeks closeness to the art scene, the Sludge veteran Eyehategod refers to his DIY background and Black Sabbath shocked the end of the 70s with psychedelic cover art and drug typography, which are now at best under the category Retro fall." It's also clear that he consider's Sludge as a Doom subgenre.

3.6. About the Banger TV's references, the statements and context on the "Stoner and Sludge Metal" episode and their relation to the Doom metal genre will make more sense if you watch the "Doom Metal" episode, since the earlier is just a follow up to the latter, and the latter is more evident on the Stoner and Sludge status within Doom metal. But if you don't want to check it, just remember that a Wikipedian refusing to check a source doesn't invalidate it, since it is verifiable. However, I do concede that they aren't good sources, not only because of the format of the show, but also that Sam Dunn's works are ususally controversial within the metal community and are met with some criticisms. I personally don't consider him that reliable of a source, but he is considered an expert of Heavy metal.

3.7. I'd like to add two more sources: Stewart Voegtlin on Stylus Magazine states that "as Black Metal has grown into a multifaceted genre as interesting as it is provocative, with current stalwarts Deathspell Omega, Ondskapt, Watain, and Sigrblot staying true to Black Metal’s fundamentals while pushing the boundaries farther and farther apart. As “Doom Metal” has its innumerable strains—sludge, funerary, stoner, etc.—so does Black Metal: Heathen Metal, Viking Metal, National Socialist Black Metal [NSBM], United States Black Metal [USBM], and so on and so forth." And Sarah Kitteringham on Bandcamp states that "A host of scenes, sounds, and substrata have developed under the broad “doom metal” umbrella: sludge, blackened doom, classic doom, and epic doom are just a handful of its growing number of new strains."

4. In no way the statement "Sludge metal is a subgenre/fusion-genre of Doom metal" could be considered exceptional. AFAIK, this statement never spawned controversy among the experts on the subject, never meant a shift of paradigms and the idea itself is well accepted within the community. Honestly, you are the first one that I saw making a controversy out of it, and a disagreement of a Wikipedian about the subject is far from enough to warrant exceptionality. ABC paulista (talk) 01:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello User:ABC paulista, you have argued the case well. Additionally, I have recently found that what genre sits where is completely up to the writers interpretation, and that these journalists can differ on the same topic. I have found references stating that Eyehategod is a doom band, a sludge band, and a sludgecore band (and perhaps it might be that at certain times they may play each of the 3 types.) If a journalist has not yet directly stated that sludge is an extreme metal subgenre, then it is only a matter of time before one does.

I thank you for your consideration, as well as your time and effort, and I will pursue this matter no further i.e. I shall not be attempting to remove the extreme metal classification from the sludge metal article. Regards, William Harris (talk) 08:57, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

William Harris, regards. If you have an idea on how to improve the article and/or on a better subgenre selection process, feel free to share. ABC paulista (talk) 13:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks! William Harris (talk) 21:15, 4 January 2021 (UTC)