Talk:Anthroposophy

Christian Gnosticism

While source #11 could be construed as WP:OR, the first ten sources of our article fully WP:V the claim that Anthroposophy is Christian Gnosticism (or neognosticism).

The ten sources express a variety of POVs: Catholic, Protestant, mainstream academic (I counted at least two full professors), and including the New Age guru Carl Gustav Jung who was Steiner's fellow neognostic leader.

There is an enormous burden of proof for giving the lie to all these ten sources, and Wikipedia listens to WP:RS written by experts, not to court verdicts written by judges having a limited knowledge of Western esotericism. In matters of academic knowledge, the final authority is WP:BESTSOURCES, not the courts of law. Courts do not get to dictate what experts in religion studies and in heresiology should believe.

If you deny the application of WP:YESPOV, then answer this question: which is the opposing view? According to which WP:RS?

Some of the ten RS have been public for several decades. Who are their detractors? I don't mean detractors in general, but detractors of the claim that Anthroposophy is neognosticism. If there are dissenters, WP:CITE the dissenters.

And if you claim that Anthroposophy is neorosicrucian: there isn't a contradiction between neorosicrucian and neognostic. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:35, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes very interesting - although if we do place some weight on the original source documents (some of which received glowing reviews in the  NYTimes etc) we could observe that the peer reviewed and highly cited source documents themselves state Anthroposophy cannot be a revival of the Gnosis, as the Gnosis was strictly guarded in hidden mysteries etc right, hm

Though the modern scholars seeking to draw parallels between Gnosticism and Theosophy etc are producing quite interesting content no doubt, are they really working with full precision? Also, are 10 citations at the beginning really necessary? Feels perhaps maybe a bit overdone maybe hehe although to share them out of the gate for initial study (where appropriate?) before condensing them somewhat could make good sense as well perhaps, right

Also around the Psuedoscience claims - Clopper Almon (Harvard/U Maryland) Barkved, Zajonc and co go quite deep here as I understand, examining deeply the ontology, epistomology and phenomenology etc hm

I also hope that a reasonable epistomological/phenomenological comparison can be added here, in seeking specifically to help improve this page, as I've also expanded on further in my response to you on my talk page? A reasonable comparison for example it seems could be with any one of the many mathematical theorems commonly accepted today that are based actually on somewhat light and quite theoretical ontological/phenomenological grounding, especially in comparison with the arguably more epistemologically/ontologically grounded scientific research as Almon and Zajonc et al can help outline.. Certainly very open to follow up thoughts, ideas and insights here though where helpful as well hm, thank you for your time and consideration. Best, -G SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia kowtows to WP:BESTSOURCES, WP:RS/AC, and WP:CHOPSY. We have the policy WP:PSCI and the essay WP:RGW. So, as far as Almon and Zajonc publish positive science in mainstream scientific journals, they get our respect. But we don't automatically respect their metaphysical and epistemological choices, see e.g. Anthroposophic medicine wherein the Anthroposophic way is rightly regarded as WP:FRINGE/quackery. It is not our problem to fix reality when it contradicts ex cathedra statements by Rudolf Steiner. Mainstream science and the medical orthodoxy rule over Wikipedia. If you disagree, you have to make your own encyclopedia, having your own rules.

E.g. Steiner ridiculed the atomic theory and the theory of relativity. We are entitled to tell our readers that he was flat-out wrong thereupon.

About Gnosticism: it was about "secret" knowledge, but not necessarily a mystery religion. We know close to nothing about the rituals of Ancient mystery religions (people who snitched were executed or sometimes banished). But the "secret" knowledge of the Gnostics was not necessarily a secret.

Another important point: Wikipedia isn't based upon our personal opinions (yours or mine). Wikipedia is based upon the opinions of WP:RS, and there is a pecking order about which RS render the scientific, medical, or academic consensus most accurately. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm yes around atomic theory Goethe and Newton et al did have a range of disagreements, and Goethean Science still does receive a good bit of attention these days

Anthroposophical Medicine as I understand it is supposed to only be a subtle complement to Western medicine generally, though it does sometimes get attacked when pushed too far out into prominence in the mainstream, some of course do look at the Flexner report of the 1910's with Rockefeller/oil interest backed push on the academy away from natural remedies to the more patentable/synthetic petroleum based/prescribable approaches of the time period hm

Understandable the push to follow mainstream citations though which do tend to be quite workable and redeemable - it could be interesting to consider where the materially focused trends will lead us though, the related lectures above from the 1910's and 20's do actually speak at length about transhumanism, job automation (civilian & defense) and material breakaway civ / 8th sphere etc, these key insights could reasonably also be considerable in discussing and improving this article, if humanity is to continue to exist and even survive our generation hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:46, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

There was the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge. Anthroposophists did not win it. There is still no evidence that a "spiritual world" (angels, archangels, sylphs, gnomes, etc.) does exist.

Sri Lanka wanted 100% organic agriculture for the whole country. That attempt was a complete failure. Where were the Anthroposophists to bail out Sri Lankans?

Simply stating that the materalist world view leads to problems does not prove there is a spiritual world. That is a false dilemma. Anyway, WP:NOTAFORUM: it is not the task of Wikipedia to solve the problems of humanity, it is only to render reliable human knowledge for what it is. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

You mentioned some books:

Books by Anthroposophists are not WP:FRIND, thus do not pass for genuine WP:SCHOLARSHIP.

When Steiner claimed that the Gnosis was strictly guarded, he was either an ignoramus or a liar. Anthroposophists who take his claim at face value cannot be trusted. See WP:FTN.

So, when your dissenters dissent from Anthroposophy is Gnosticism because "the Gnosis was strictly guarded", that is a completely bogus reason. Meaning their claim isn't WP:V in WP:RS written by respectable scholars of religion. The claim was made up by Blavatsky, and taken at face value by Steiner and his believers. Or, allowing for some doubt, made up by Steiner and taken at face value by his believers.

I don't think that the Pope or the Catholic Church were "sinless" in 1919, but they have to be accused of their real sins, not of imaginary ones. Anway, the statement that Anthroposophy is a neognostic heresy wasn't adopted to appease Mussolini. Such idea is preposterous. There is no logical thread from that statement to cutting a deal with Mussolini. Completely made up. So, you were inserting a truthful historical fact in a totally inappropriate context, you were suggesting guilt by association. The fact that some years after making that statement the Pope reached a deal with Mussolini is true, but mentioning it in that specific context is a sophism. The Pope was not in control of the bigger political events from Italy, but subject to them. He chose to make a deal in a situation that was already awry. The Pope had some political power, but not that much political power to be blamed for everything which went bad in Italy. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:04, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps one could consider that Steiner himself perceived that Anthroposophy could not be a revival of 'the Gnosis', because he perceived the actual and true Gnosis was a closely guarded secret, and therefore did not want to found Anthroposophy on it? Not seeing how that would make him a liar or ignorant - we can see it was his choice to expressly avoid founding Anthroposophy on the ancient secrets he perceived as 'the Gnosis', even if subsequent scholars did judge Anthroposophy as close enough to the more common 'Gnosticism' or the very common 'neo-Gnosticism' now broadly in circulation these days..

Are you so sure that the contemporary 'Gnosticism' page on today's Wikipedia actually contains references to the 'the Gnosis' true of ancient times referenced above? How might you prove this?

So yes we can observe that while Steiner and community have eschewed building their movement on 'the Gnosis' of ancient times in their own words/texts, some scholars have gone out of their way still to apply the label of a more common 'Gnosticism' and the yet more commonly circulating 'neo-Gnosticism' of our time.. As political tensions were rising in 1919 the church did also happen to apply this label of 'neo-Gnosticism' of course, and soon after the Italian state government did happen to transform to a new political system - not asserting there was some kind of direct correlation there per se, but it certainly was a time of notable rising Naziism.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Not my task to prove anything. I simply WP:CITE WP:RS. Wikipedia is simply a website for churning WP:RS, according to an agreed methodology (WP:RULES).

What I have shown: scholars from various POVs (mainstream academic, traditional Catholic, conservative Evangelical, and New Age) agree that Anthroposophy is Gnosticism or neognosticism.

What you have shown: Steiner and his believers reject this label for spurious reasons. So, you have a sect which rejects this label for bogus reasons, I have WP:SCHOLARSHIP which shows that the label does apply.

And, of course, there is a huge difference between emic and etic. Wikipedia takes an etic approach, not an emic approach. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:02, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

... and you have violated WP:PSCI. WP:AE is just around the corner. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm, was it the sentence around ontology/epistemology with citations that caused the WP:PSI concern there? The sources do go quite deep on epistemology but are somewhat focused on education etc hm - the schools are quite well known around the world, and the wines do consistently win the international contests etc hm

Also, is it so fair to classify Anthroposophy as 'neo-Gnosticism' in the first sentence with 11 citations before the Britannica link? Seems a bit heavy handed hm - also some academic sources below related to your query in the other thread, which attempt to show the secrecy and control around esoteric Gnostic knowledge (2nd link from Wiki page) of the ancient past hm

https://academic.oup.com/book/8519/chapter-abstract/154365661?redirectedFrom=fulltexthttps://static1.squarespace.com/static/52cdf95ae4b0c18dd2d0316a/t/53e074cee4b0ea4fa48a5704/1407218894673/Pagels%2C+Elaine+-+The+Gnostic+Gospels.pdf SamwiseGSix (talk) 03:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

So after deeper analysis with the broader group, how about I implement these modest adjustments as discussed? I could add this tonight or tomorrow, if there are no objections:

"Anthroposophy is a philosophical, spiritual, and social movement founded in the early 20th century by the esotericist Rudolf Steiner. The approach does postulate in instances the existence of an intuitively comprehensible spiritual world - accessible in instances to human experience, particularly historically. Some followers of anthroposophy aim to engage in spiritual discovery through a mode of thought independent of sensory experience. While critics assert much of anthroposophy is pseudoscientific, proponents seek to present their ideas in a manner that can be reasonably verified, seeking clarity comparable in cases to that obtained by scientists investigating the physical world."

Under #religious nature:

"Some scholars explore the influence of Gnosticism on Anthroposophy establishing some clear similarities, although the source texts and community do deny and eschew the label. The Catholic Church did during the height of growing political tensions in 1919 issue an edict classifying Anthroposophy as "a neognostic heresy" despite the fact that Steiner "very well respected the distinctions on which Catholic dogma insists". and similar labels continued to be applied and cited in the area, especially during the 1920's - 1940's.

Post WW2 relations have been much warmer however.. " SamwiseGSix (talk) 22:45, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

According to WP:PSCI, the label of pseudoscience should not be softened (whitewashed).

And I would be extremely surprised if the Roman Catholic Church recants its claim that Anthroposophy is heresy. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes I see, does any of the above affect any of the assertions of Pseudoscience though?

Regarding the past edicts, we are are perhaps lucky to be living in a somewhat more merciful and gentler time overall in many ways these days, and as the folks in the other thread sharing analysis had offered, are you ok with an edit close to the above, or might you offer another version? One could hope we should at least be able to more closely mirror the Britannica intro, right Best -S SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

There was a scholar who had over the desire to immanentize the eschaton. Briefly, he said that Communism and Nazism have much in common with Gnosticism. So, I'm not sure that in that context the accusation of being a neognostic movement amounted to bad press. Hitler supported some belief in the Christian God, but he wasn't fond of the theological orthodoxy. Even clearer: the purpose of Hitler and Mussolini wasn't killing heretics. I mean they believed that the accusation of heresy is superstitious claptrap.

Coming back to the article, "explore" is vague, even more vague that Gnosticism. So I don't support that edit. But if the WP:CONSENSUS says I'm wrong about it, I am prepared to accept it. Also, the articles from Britannica about Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner are terribly short, I don't think they are good examples to follow. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you doctor G for making those edits, the new article version sure is a real relief to see - there definitely is still hope in the world hehe

Quite something to see the wisdom of the crowd at scale helping to guide process in crowdsourcing the worlds' knowledge in beautiful Encyclopedic format daily here, and certainly an interesting scholar (E. Voegelin, right) you mention there also - he sure seemed to share some unique perspectives there hehe but will certainly work to take a closer look. SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Certainly not seeking to whitewash concerns of Pseudoscience here but rather to welcome them, deeply explore them, and hoping to further consider some of the ontological epistemological, and phenomenological arguments et al that some published scholarship may be able to help provide in balance, including in support of notable material phenomena like the Waldorf Schools in almost every major city globally (~3000 total) the Biodynamic Movement (inventors of Organics) and more - for the sake of a decent, and humane future.

I would like to present the paragraph draft example below for you, for you to share your concerns? I would like to more deeply understand your thoughts and concerns about any of the citations and wording that might come up, and possibly find better links/approaches that could be more easily mutually agreeable around consensus here as well. Thank you for your consideration and please do keep us updated here, always pumped to keep in touch on all items in these dynamic times of change Best, -S

Anthroposophy includes roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to some scholarly critics pseudoscience, including racist pseudoscience. Critics and proponents alike acknowledge his many anti-racist statements, often far ahead of his contemporaries and predecessors still commonly cited today. Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. Steiner chose the term anthroposophy (from Greek anthropo-, 'human', and sophia, 'wisdom') to emphasize his philosophy's humanistic orientation.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think humanistic is the appropriate word, e.g. secular humanism is an ethical philosophy of atheists and agnostics (mainly). Perhaps you meant humanitarian.

Second, those highfalutin statements about epistemology and phenomenology will never whitewash the label of pseudoscience. Not at this website, see WP:LUNATICS.

Third, Wikipedia has an article on biodynamic agriculture, but again, you won't like it, because it is biased for mainstream science, and mainstream science does not approve of the ways of Anthroposophy. E.g. Bourne, Joel K. (2015). The End of Plenty: The Race to Feed a Crowded World. W. W. Norton. p. 164. ISBN 978-0-393-24804-3. Retrieved 28 January 2022. We aren't going to feed six billion people with organic fertilizer. If we tried to do it, we would level most of our forest and many of those lands would be productive only for a short period of time.

Even more clearer: stating in the voice of Wikipedia that Anthroposophy is pseudoscience is required by website policy, and you have no chance of dodging this website policy when many eyes are looking at this article.

Your purpose of whitewashing the label of pseudoscience is incompatible with the purpose of writing Wikipedia. So, I suggest WP:DEADHORSE. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe yes interesting, well there are some scholars who assert we could conceivably feed the world with organic agriculture ;)

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/badgley-lab/wp-content/uploads/sites/28/2013/12/Can-organic-agriculture-feed-the-world.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-01410-w

No one is seeking to move or remove the Pseudoscience tag here, just wondering why one wouldn't be able to consider adding a citation like this one for example?https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

They are offering quite extensive arguments on epistemology etc right, in the field of education in this case. In other words, although the article intro says 'much of anthroposophy is pseudoscientific' there still remains some materialistically observable phenomena measurable right, wouldn't this be neutral peer reviewed academic research be notable and scientific to include? Even if 'much of anthroposophy is pseudoscientific' in the intro there can still be some scientific data measurable and includable right - though I understand there may be some extensive complexities at play here, just seeking to gain a better understanding of your guys' thought processes and policies etc ;) SamwiseGSix (talk) 03:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Your for the sake of a decent, and humane future is just another excuse to peddle woo. WP:DEADHORSE. WP:IDHT.

Also, you shouldn't think of us as scientists or philosophers, but as the servile scribes of mainstream science (scientific orthodoxy). tgeorgescu (talk) 04:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes sure, but isn't the arizona.edu piece linked above there an example of mainstream science? SamwiseGSix (talk) 04:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

If organic agriculture is to have a chance for the future of mankind, it will only be thanks to GMOs. Oh, the irony: Anthroposophists militate against GMOs!

The idea is that Wikipedia only endorses reliable knowledge. I.e. what passes as reliable according to scientific orthodoxy. It is not the task of Wikipedia to change scientific orthodoxy. Wikipedia does not decide by itself what counts as pseudoscience. The scientific community does that. Wikipedia simply mirrors what they decide. Anyway, the dice have been cast, and Anthroposophy has egg on its face in respect to Steiner's pretense of being a scientific luminary. You cannot change that through talk page arguments, see WP:RGW.

This isn't WP:RS, but says it rather well: Wikipedia is an attempt to collect the knowledge of a materialistic and mechanistic world view and to present the ideological view of neoliberalism and state-conformist western politics. https://www.freewiki.eu/en/index.php?title=Welcome_to_FreeWiki tgeorgescu (talk) 04:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe yes some very interesting thoughts and ideas there - to start with though, it is always an option to scale agriculture production using some GMO approaches and some organic approaches, including across regions etc as preferable..

Not sure I'm seeing folks connected to the community here 'militate' against GMOs per se, perhaps finding some kind of a balance though (say a blend of GMO and non-GMO options, including across geographies, with adjustments over time etc?) could make good sense as well. While GMOs can certainly bring a range of benefits, for example;https://www.cell.com/trends/plant-science/fulltext/S1360-1385(22)00004-8https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15427520802418251

..there is also plenty of mainstream science assessing ways to test/assess for safety and mitigate/reduce risks etc as well right, for example:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15123382/

Shouldn't a modest blend of such links be considered legitimate as well, for full academic Neutral Point of View? Not saying that I’m personally interested in adding such links, just speaking conceptually as it might relate to overall balance/neutrality around NPOV on the article above here.

For proposed page link(s) for the article, I don't personally see the harm or concern with adding some of the previously mentioned academic research (largely epistemology around education/pedagogy, and some philosophical ontology, we can always avoid agriculture or present balanced views around GMO etc as needed/preferable). This should not be considered 'whitewashing' (implying a 'washing over' or 'covering up') instead it should be seen as 'complementing' the existing academic sources with additional academic sources to facilitate a more balanced and true NPOV, don't you think?

To help facilitate a consideration of such academic sources to complement and for NPOV, and/or to further discuss concerns and approaches around agriculture et al if needed, perhaps we could also consider starting an additional thread below - as I see we may still be posting under a slightly differently theme thread here hehe (I did actually still have a last minor adjustment or two I was looking to propose on the '#Religious Nature' section in this regard, using some of the consensus/insight from the broader thread yesterday though - shareable upon response) as well. Very curious to hear your thoughts on all questions/threads and thank you for your consideration, always pumped to keep chipping away at all items here in these times of rapid change ;) SamwiseGSix (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Anthroposophy is largely pseudoscientific, and you cannot change that through talk page arguments. Wikipedia will continue to say that Anthroposophy is largely pseudoscientific. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:05, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the page can assert that Anthroposophy is largely pseudoscientific, and still also show some of the relevant academic research demonstrating epistemology etc, helping facilitate the standard of 'NPOV'.

This should not reasonably be considered 'whitewashing' - a term generally referring to the 'covering up' of often serious offences eg crimes, scandals, vices etc hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 22:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that Anthroposophy is mainly pseudoscience it is the view of critics, but also it is the view of everybody in the reality-based community. So you are not allowed to change it to "the view of critics is that Anthroposophy is mainly pseudoscience" or to "it is pseudoscience according to critics". As I said, WP:AE is just around the corner. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but to call it flat out racist, without qualifying the many leading anti-racist statements recognized by both proponents and critics in academia? That does not seem to be adhering to NPOV..

Published here is the opinion of someone in the reality based community as you put it, who helps further demonstrates the epistemology:

https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

So are you ok with my editing in something like the below?

"Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. Steiner chose the term anthroposophy (from Greek anthropo-, 'human', and sophia, 'wisdom') to emphasize his philosophy's.."

Or perhaps we should also consider requesting a third opinion here? SamwiseGSix (talk) 22:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Third-party opinion: Search for psiram, under Steiner_quotes.

Or https://petekaraiskos.blogspot.com/2010/12/steiner-quotes-specifically-race.html and https://petekaraiskos.blogspot.com/2010/12/steiner-quotes-jews-racial-progression.html tgeorgescu (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

In the end, he made me curious about Munoz's PhD thesis, so I checked what Munoz says about "Anthroposophy and racism", and I have WP:CITED Munoz. So, I did not even had to search for WP:RS, since in several instances the Anthroposophic editors have provided the sources for me, I only had to read what the sources say. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Epistemology, Ontology etc

Looking for reasons we can't add and cite this academic article among others, as an example? This can't in any way reasonably be considered 'whitewashing' right..

https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y SamwiseGSix (talk) 22:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

If you remove the statement that Anthroposophy is pseudoscience, stated in the voice of Wikipedia, WP:AE is just around the corner. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm interesting - doesn't this account better demonstrate a neutral point of view though, as there are many academics recognizing the many anti-racist statements (essentially almost world leading, right, who was more progressive in this area? even P. Staudenmeier declines to name names, right) along with the extensive/complex ontology, epistemology etc:

Anthroposophy includes roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to scholarly critics pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience. Critics and proponents alike acknowledge his many anti-racist statements, often far ahead of his contemporaries and predecessors still commonly cited today. Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded.

I'm searching the link you posted for 'Psiram' but am not seeing any results in it - given much of his language is not appropriate by today's standards but overall his many anti-racist statements and views distinguish him from contemporaries like W. Wilson, F. Engels and K. Marx if you check their quotes..

This article is a bit dated but does at least showcase much of his anti-racist language and outlook:

https://waldorfanswers.org/ARacistMyth.htm SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Also https://waldorfanswers.org/RSAgainstAnti-Semitism.htm SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Do I have to spell it out for you?

"It certainly cannot be denied that Jewry today still behaves as a closed totality, and as such it has frequently intervened in the development of our current state of affairs in a way that is anything but favorable to European ideas of culture. But Jewry itself has long since outlived its time; it has no more justification within the modern life of peoples, and the fact that it continues to exist is a mistake of world history whose consequences are unavoidable. We do not mean the forms of the Jewish religion alone, but above all the spirit of Jewry, the Jewish way of thinking." (Steiner, Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Literatur p. 152)

"Thus the greatest tragedy of this 20th century [World War I] has come from what the Jews are also striving for. And one can say that since everything the Jews have done can now be done consciously by all people, the best thing that the Jews could do would be to disappear into the rest of humankind, to blend in with the rest of humankind, so that Jewry as a people would simply cease to exist. That is what would be ideal. This ideal is still opposed, even today, by many Jewish habits - and above all by the hatred of other people. That is what must be overcome." (Steiner, Die Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der Kulturvölker p. 189)

Das Judentum als solches hat sich aber längst ausgelebt, hat keine Berechtigung des modernen Völkerlebens, und daß es sich dennoch erhalten hat, ist ein Fehler der Weltgeschichte, dessen Folgen nicht ausbleiben konnten. Wir meinen hier nicht die Formen der jüdischen Religion alleine, wir meinen vorzüglich den Geist des Judentums, die jüdische Denkweise. "Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Literatur " GA 32, p. 152 f.

Judaism as such is long lived out, has no entitlement of modern peoples' lives, and that it persists nevertheless is an error in world history which was bound to have inevitable consequences. We do not mean Jewish religion only, we especially mean the character of Judaism, the Jewish way of thinking.

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

He is certainly wrong there, but was also a leading voice in condemning popular antisemetism of his time:

Already in the beginning of the 1880's, Steiner condemned one of the most profiled representatives of anti-Semitism in Germany, the socialist Eugen Dühring. Dühring argued in publications for a violent final solution of the "Jewish question". Steiner described Dühring's anti-Semitism as "barbarian and anti-cultural" and condemned "racial struggle" as "the most repulsive form of party struggle".

In the 1890s' Steiner vehemently argued against the "outrageous excesses of the anti-Semites" and condemned the "anti-Semitic brutes" as enemies of the human rights. As a convinced liberal, whose position coincided with that of liberal Jewry (reform Jewry), he actively supported the integration and full legal and social status of the Jews in Europe.

In 1888 he wrote: "The Jews need Europe and Europe needs the Jews" (2). Against the anti-Semitic propaganda of hatred, he set his ideal: "One should only value mutual actions between individuals. It is completely uninteresting if one is a Jew or a German ... That is so simple, that one almost is stupid saying it. How stupid does one then not have to be to say the opposite."

ANTISEMITISM IS THE OPPOSITE OF A SOUND WAY OF THINKING

In 1900 Steiner described anti-Semitism as a "derision of every cultural achievement" of modern time, as "an expression of spiritual inferiority", as a "sign of triteness" and as "the opposite of a sound way of thinking".

In a series of articles, that he wrote in 1901 for the Berlin "Association against anti-Semitism", he argued against the "Germanen" myth of the German racists and their "senseless anti-Semitic chatter". He compared the special legislation against the Jews in European countries with "statutes of slavery". Anyone who believes in the ideas of the human rights, must say to himself: "Anti-Semitism is an insult to all beliefs in ideas. Most of all it is an insult against the idea that humanity stands higher than any specific form (tribe, race, people) in which it expresses itself" (3).

Steiner's clear criticism of anti-Semitism and racism runs through his complete life's work. It is based on the philosophical foundation of anthroposophy, the "ethical individualism", that Steiner conceived already in the 1890s'. Its central concept is that of the self determining individual and its emancipation from the thought- and life forms that want to reduce man to an expression of racial and ethnical peculiarities. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you want to check Karl Marx's quotes on Judaism by comparison? On race? They are quite horrific.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Who was a better or more progressive thinker on race for his time? Even P. Staudenmeier declines to name names right SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

As I have stated repeatedly: his statements are a mixed bag. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

His overall goal, hope and vision is for humanity to intermarry and for racial and religious differences to fall away and become meaningless right, and he was focused on a 'Philosophy of Freedom' so therefore there is not supposed to be any kind of forced assimilation of any kind, but rather that humanity chooses to intermarry and become as one freely essentially

Yes he definitely has some statements that should be rejected by our far advanced perspectives and outlook today, but to flatly label him racist? This seems very unfair, and potentially devastating in these fast changing times SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

This to me with the citations feels much more fair, overall:

Anthroposophy includes roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to scholarly critics pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience. Critics and proponents alike acknowledge his many anti-racist statements, often far ahead of his contemporaries and predecessors still commonly cited today. Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

About potentially devastating: as I told you, Wikipedia is not for positing my own opinions, but for positing the opinions of WP:RS. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

So it sounds like you are ok with me adding this sentence below, right?

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

but it's this proposed section "..has roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to scholarly critics pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience." that you're objecting to at this point? SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. Like: there are elves, fairies, sylphs, and gnomes who are in control of the events from the natural world? Don't make me laugh! tgeorgescu (talk) 23:45, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe one can always take the best and leave the rest as the saying goes :) So scientifically for example we can see that Waldorf pedagogy is on quite strong epistemological ground, while much of Steiner's philosophical ontology eg commentary on Hegal, Marx Nietzche et al is still quite advanced even for our time today.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

So the Wiki article can still use the tone of largely pseudoscience etc, but there can be some limited links to citations demonstrating some of the materially scientifically datapoints, if that makes sense SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

"Mysticism is the metaphysics of idiots." — Theodore Adorno. Or: "Occultism is the metaphysic of dunces." tgeorgescu (talk) 23:54, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Much of the materialism there essentially just stems from Karl Marx's inversion of Hegel's dialectic into materialism eg 'dialectic materialism' - a pretty significant set of assumptions.. Can you really assume that one day material science will be able to present with full confidence a fully comprehensive model of the big bang, for example? Plenty of highly cited scholars allow for the possibility of there being some deeper mysteries to the universe, questions of why, the ontology etc etc.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

So, can I start by adding this with the citations, or do you think we should consider requesting a third opinion? Why or why not?

'Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded.' SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

(Regarding metaphysics, Steiner wrote more on Aquinas and Aristotle with deepest appreciation than almost anyone hm) SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

This is a hardcore WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia. If you behave like it is The Tooth Fairy Fan Club, you have zero chances of success. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe, nice - so would you put Aquinas in the tooth fairy club on metaphysics? https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/Metaphysics.htm SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

"Angry gnomes produce quarrels between schoolchildren, so let's blame the janitor!"—do you call that ontology/epistemology? Ha, ha, ha!

Teachers who seriously claim that are full-blown delusional. You can have more hope for a crack addict or for a heroin junkie. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I've read your update on my talk page - the guidelines here state to be civil and welcome newcomers, perhaps you could explain how I might be blocked for responding to your comments here? We do seem to need a third opinion here, Thomas Aquinas on spiritual beings: https://www.abebooks.com/Saint-Thomas-Aquinas-Spiritual-Creatures-Marquette/30821880158/bd SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Whatever Aquinas believed, that's no excuse for passing "Angry gnomes produce quarrels between schoolchildren, so let's blame the janitor!" for rationality. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you show me where you found that quote? So a random teacher makes a silly comment, that's obviously not publishable content - the link below on the other hand appears to be a pretty academic overview of the measurable Waldorf epistemology, thus the 3000 schools in most major cities worldwide, etc

https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not about a random teacher makes a silly comment. It is established practice in Waldorf schools. Magister dixit! https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/my-waldorf-student-son-believes-in-gnomes-and-thats-fine-with-me/274521/

"Steiner schools, or Waldorf schools as they are known in the USA, are based upon the ideas of a very intelligent but quite mad Austrian called Rudolf Steiner. His educational techniques were devised not empirically, that is to say by observation and experiment, but were learned clairvoyantly from, among others, the spirits of dead Atlanteans. Call me Mr. Conventional Stick- in- the-Mud, but this has never served to recommend his educational philosophy to me." http://homeeducationheretic.blogspot.com/2009/10/here-come-gnomes.html tgeorgescu (talk) 01:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe yes, funny right - though plenty of prominent tech execs have send their kids to Waldorf school as an example, among other fields: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

For further insight on metaphysics, one can refer back to Aquinas.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:26, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Stop peddling Aquinas if you do not want a level 4 warning. WP:NOTAFORUM. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Feeling confused, the oft-cited scholar relates to the relevant subjects in question on this article's talk page and is relevant to the article right, can you help me understand which policy is not being properly followed by the newcomer here? SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Aquinas has written absolutely nothing about Rudolf Steiner and/or Anthroposophy. So citing Aquinas in this article is sheer WP:OR.

Anyway, my point is: to those from the reality-based community his epistemology (talking to the spirits of dead Atlanteans) and ontology (elves, fairies, sylphs, gnomes) are ludicrous and farcical. We have a policy thereupon: WP:GEVAL. And the guideline WP:FRINGE.

"If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic." Thomas Szasz. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm, well it appears prominent figures and scholars like Owen Barfield et al have drawn deep comparisons and ties between Steiner and Aquinas - as for the Szaz quote, he appears to be drawing quite deeply on Freud, Beck and co there right

Default existentialism of the 30's, with a dash of Stoicism added on in the 60s there perhaps? ;) SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

This talk page is WP:NOTAFORUM for discussing existentialism, Stoicism, materialism, and so on. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, ontology and epistemology are prominent branches in the field of philosophy right, which do underpin many of the questions and concerns which seem to be rising in regards to the article, and are related to the philosophy of science and demarcation etc hm

In other words, they do appear quite related to the seeking of additional scientific and academic citations to improve the article here, to help facilitate a more balanced NPOV per the community standard hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Here at Wikipedia WP:NPOV entails WP:PSCI, WP:GEVAL, and WP:FRINGE. E.g. the Rose Journal does not pass WP:FRIND. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so how about this sentence and citations then? SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The Rose Journal is uncitable. My two cents are that the other references are not much better. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok removed, so how about I add this sentence w/ citations in then?

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:40, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion: even if it is WP:V in WP:RS, it should not be included if it runs afoul of WP:GEVAL, WP:PSCI, or WP:FRINGE. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mosesheron: What difference do you see to Smith and Mormonism? A man claims he has had revelations from God, presents a new scripture he says comes from God, starts a new religion that claims to be a restoration, not new. It sure seems very similar. The more serious problem in your arguments above is that you continously imply we should find some middle road between faith and scholarship. We should not, as that would be the opposite of WP:NPOV. I know many people misunderstand NPOV and think it's about meeting halfway. It is not; it's about representing the most reliable sources as accurately as possible. Jeppiz (talk) 09:52, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 02:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm, so the qualification that mainstream science views much of Anthroposophy to be pseudoscientific, but that aspects of its ontology and epistemology particularly as applied in philosophy, and education have been academically and scientifically studied and noted? This would seem to be a more granular approach to NPOV - not a meeting in the middle, but a leading with the qualifier, and then at least an acknowledgement of some of the (pretty extensive and notable) academic literature that scientifically outlines the benefits in applying the epistemology etc SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Again, we go for WP:BESTSOURCES. We do not go for sources which fail WP:FRIND. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes of course, so far those sources seem quite independent - getting a bit late here so going to need to get to bed, certainly curious to see what you guys think and come up with though SamwiseGSix (talk) 03:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Dispute resolution won't do any good. The feedback you've gotten so far is the exact same kind of feedback that you would get in Wikipedia's dispute resolution systems. To simplify it somewhat, Wikipedia reflects the kind of scholarship that you find at leading secular universities, such as those mentioned at WP:CHOPSY: the kinds of things you would find taught at Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton, the Sorbonne, and/or Yale. If a view is considered fringe in those kinds of circles, you can bet that it will be considered fringe at Wikipedia. Now, that may not seem fair, especially if you believe the CHOPSY outlook is wrong. But that is the way Wikipedia has been since its inception, and it would be very unlikely if you could talk the Wikipedia community out of the approach that they've used since the beginning. As William Dever put it in "What Remains of the House that Albright Built?', "the overwhelming scholarly consensus today is that Moses is a mythical figure." That's from William Dever, who is on the conservative side of much of the debate currently going on within mainstream biblical studies. The great majority of mainstream scholars have abandoned the idea of Moses as a historical figure. Alephb (talk) 00:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

And Steiner's talks about something like AI are not "prophecy", but science-fiction. We do not call Jules Verne a prophet. Morals: in a WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia Steiner could be a genial SciFi author, but certainly not a prophet. E.g. in his "prophecy" about the mad cow disease, he blamed urates, when in reality a virus was the cause of the disease. If he had supernatural insight, he would not have made such a gross confusion.

Why are Waldorf schools better schools? Any school which can afford to cherrypick its students can do much better than average.

And if you are here to deny atomic theory in the name of Goethean science: go away, don't waste out our time with such nonsense.

Wikipedia is not an advertising billboard. Just because members of the MGTOW community don't like this article doesn't mean it's biased. Wikipedia is designed to be written from a neutral point of view, not a promotional point of view. In the case of fringe opinions, such as MGTOW, Flat Earth Society, etc., the proponents of such opinions are as a rule never satisfied with the consensus version of the article. That doesn't mean Wikipedia should completely avoid covering such topics. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 13:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm interesting, it does not appear that the quotes are pertinent here - of course we agree that Wikipedia should not be advertising for the "MGTOW" or Flat Earth movements and I'm in full agreement with this policy: the NPOV standard objectively manages the related parameters there arguably quite effectively.

Regarding NPOV and CHOPSY on this article, we can of course also observe that plenty of present and former WP/CHOPSY scholars have academically published favorably regarding some of the related epistemology and ontology etc here, including Zajonc, Amrine, McKanan and others. Interesting questions W. Dever and co are raising there also - it appears the Smithsonian piece can additionally help facilitate more objective and neutral ways of viewing the prominent leaders depicted in the Old Testament or Torah, with some modest additional support from the Eakins piece below as well: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/archaeological-dig-reignites-debate-old-testament-historical-accuracy-180979011/https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/003463737707400402?journalCode=raeb

However, I don't think anyone here seeks to portray Steiner as a prophet - from a tech/VC/business management science standpoint today, being able to successfully found companies/organizations and make accurate predictions while understanding/forecasting trends are important though, and he did somehow manage to found a range of companies/organizations that have grown to large sizes and market cap etc today (often scientifically assessed positively in academia), while arguably leveraging pattern/trend analysis in making a range of predictions on technical/sociological trends around automation, democracy and transhumanism et al that are still arguably quite relevant in our time today.

If there is then no epistemological or ontological basis to the Waldorf schools for example, why do many leaders around tech entertainment and more choose to send their kids to Waldorf schools instead of the other options as the NYTimes article and others explore, not to mention notable alumni accomplishments? And finally yes, while Goethean Science is criticized by some scholars, it certainly receives plenty of positive measurement and sentiment in academic research as well, thus the referral back to and recommendation for the more truly balanced and neutral NPOV standard and approach here. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

So with all this being said, and having explored all of the relevant subjects and sources to the article here, I would like to go ahead and make this addition after the second sentence of the second paragraph of the article:

"Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded."

These independent sources help facilitate a balanced NPOV as reflected by the academic research - is any of this going to be an issue for you, or should we request a third opinion? SamwiseGSix (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

As I said: WP:PSCI, WP:GEVAL, WP:FRINGE. You have to obey these all while you edit Wikipedia. If you do not like do do that, leave. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, understood - so as I understand it since these are independent sources above, I could go ahead and edit these in after the second sentance of the second paragraph. It would be the direct adjustment of the first sentence of the second paragraph however (to qualifying say with 'scholarly critics assert') that would cause you to revert etc

I do have to travel quite a ways across timezones late this week and over the weekend for a funeral unfortunately, so I was planning to come back to this ideally early next week, if possible as well. SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I cannot force you to like our WP:RULES, but if you do not like our rules, vote with your feet.

I'm not saying that I'm without mistake, but I evaluate all edits according to WP:RULES, not according to my own liking and prejudices. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes of course, it is all about the science and NPOV :thumbsup: SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Suggesting that Wikipedia should endorse gnomes, sylphs, and talking to the spirits of dead Atlanteans makes a mockery of our encyclopedia. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Not endorsing any of those things or seeeking to make a mockery out of the Encyclopedia in any way here, rather simply trying to help add some of the scientific insight available in the many independent journal articles linked above to help facilitate neutral point of view, for the sake of a decent and humane future. Humanity faces existential risk https://cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal/article/view/1069 SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Why do you state for the sake of a decent and humane future. Humanity faces existential risk? WP:NOTAFORUM. You cannot win this debate with such inane arguments. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I saw your post on my talk page - I am seeking to use the talk page here to help improve the article by seeking a more balanced NPOV and the academic sources on the topic (both from the literature and posts citing their points above) above certainly do arguably apply right.. Not seeking to soapbox - are you saying that you have admin capability and can simply block me as an editor without warning? This does seem to be quite heavy handed, and an unfair application of the policy. SamwiseGSix (talk) 13:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I have never said I am an admin. I just said that WP:AE is just around the corner. So is WP:ANI also. If you do not want to listen to my warnings, there are plenty of admins ready to block you. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Coming back to the edit you have suggested, my two cents are that all the new sources fail WP:FRIND, so: no, you edit isn't allowed. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Hm, so even when an editor is making points very arguably strongly related to improving the article (including around the deeper questions of ontology and philosophy of science) you are saying that you could begin an arbitration process for this - I am assuming the admins would closely read the arguments in question, and assess to what degree they are related to improving the article? Can you show me the precedents that make you feel confidently that I could be blocked from editing without further notice here? Again a fair application of the policies should allow for discussion of ontology, including around philosophy of science right.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

As for the sources above cited, they are independent reliable sources right - can you demonstrate from your perspective (your two cents, as you say) why they are not independent reliable sources.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I urge you to desist from offtopic rants about materialism, existentialism, future of mankind, and existential risk. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Well is the academic literature above not connecting the way the subject article of this talk page is applicable to reducing existential risk? Existentialism is related to the ontology and philosophy of science in this article and your counter assertions - are you trying to argue that we are not allowed to discuss ontology or the philosophy of science? SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This talk page is WP:NOTAFORUM. If you have been unable to get the point after so many hints and formal warnings, you will likely never get it. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I was going to say that, this talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, and not a general discussion forum. Slatersteven (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Right, and I am here politely recommending that we include a sentence like the one below after the second sentence of the second paragraph, to facilitate a more balanced NPOV which showcases the many independent reliable sources publishing relevant data on the subject - is this not a fair application of the NPOV standard and talk page use in facilitating?

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: ontology meaning gnomes, elves, fairies, and sylphs; epistemology meaning talking to the spirits of dead Atlanteans. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Irrelevant, what is relevant is I found none of those words in the first source, so it failed wp:v. Slatersteven (talk) 14:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: I mean I'm not ignorant of Steiner's ontology, nor of his epistemology. Endorsing them would make a mockery of our encyclopedia. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Epistemology is in the title here, for Waldorf pedagogy https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The metaphysics does draw heavily from Aquinas and Ancient Greek philosophy, but the independent reliable sources here are looking at Waldorf pedagogy (over 3000 schools in most major cities) for example among other applications, including environmental conservation and more:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244013494861 SamwiseGSix (talk) 15:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded is a largely meaningless sentence that only serves only WP:FALSEBALANCE. Do opponents "acknowledge arguments" when they refute them? Anthroposophy is a weird mixture of obsolete scientific theories, schizophrenic delusions, and platitudes, held together by pompous flubdub. And that sentence is 100% pompous flubdub. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:18, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, on a call here currently - will rework this and can post an updated version within an hour or so here SamwiseGSix (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This is not a chatroom, you do not have to write something just to write something. And there is no deadline. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't see why we can't add a sentence for example mentioning the epistemology as studied and measured by the academy in education, and its effectiveness in Waldorf education specifically? Not including such extensive and notable scientific data does would not appear to be a proper implementation/adherence to the Wikipedia NPOV policy. This is not to create a false balance, but to state that while much of the body of Anthroposophical work would be considered pseudoscientific by today's standards, some independent, scientifically measured research has nevertheless been published, and is notable for inclusion to keep the article at a reasonable NPOV standard. Just following the science here:https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476718X211051184https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html SamwiseGSix (talk) 17:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said: WP:FRINGE. Maybe for you that's not a valid argument, but for the Wikipedia Community is a valid argument. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes sure, and that is why presented here are a range of sources passing Wikipedia's standards for 'notability', 'parity', 'independence' and attribution etc as stated on the WP/Fringe page you cite:

https://www.scielo.br/j/er/a/8nyN7QDpx6JYdh4VvYsPBHN/

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ej432784https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15507394.2017.1294400

H. A. Alexander, Reclaiming Goodness: Education and the Spiritual Quest (Notre Dame, IN: University of Notre Dame Press, 2001); D. E. Hall, A. M. Catanzaro, O. Harrison, and H.G. Koenig (UTChttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476718X211051184https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=yhttps://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html

SamwiseGSix (talk) 17:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Rather then providing links how about three really good quotes that back up your suggestion? Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure, here some quotes which I hope could help:

From the Indedendent.co.uk:

"Pupils from Steiner schools are said to have practical skills that make them more able to cope in the adult world.." "The argument goes: if it is all right for rich parents to pay for their children to undergo this kind of education, why should it not be available to those who do not have the means to pay for their children's education as well?"

Eric.gov: "Waldorf schools educate the whole human being--head, heart, and hands."

Journal via Arizona.edu: "Students from Waldorf school environments demonstrate critical skills and critique schooling environments, invoking stances familiar to critical pedagogues. Investigation into the philosophical tenets of Waldorf education and Native American/Indigenous epistemologies shows several examples of overlap and similarity, the most striking being elements of spiritual belief and practice as foundational to Native American/Indigenous well-being, and the ability of Waldorf education to address this."

NYTimes: "The chief technology officer of eBay sends his children to a nine-classroom school here. So do employees of Silicon Valley giants like Google, Apple, Yahoo and Hewlett-Packard. This is the Waldorf School of the Peninsula, one of around 160 Waldorf schools in the country that subscribe to a teaching philosophy focused on physical activity and learning through creative, hands-on tasks.." SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

what has this to do with "Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded", what is this thread about? Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok so how about we start by saying, in the 'Scientific Basis' section further down of this article something like:

"While some academics consider much of the body of Anthroposophy's compiled work and knowledge to be pseudoscientific, other scholars and recognized sources have recognized the positive empirically measurable results of the movement's insights as applied in education for example, where the founding and growth of over 3000 Waldorf schools (and kindergartens) worldwide has demonstrated significant and notable positive empirically measurable results [then the four citations]." SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

We could then write a similar sentence for the similarly notable results in environmental conservation, farming, philosophy/ontology, the Camphills, and perhaps banking, where prominent scholars (at high levels in central banks now etc) have been cited as well hm

Overall I might offer though that timewise, I would prefer to keep things a bit more quick/concise by just starting with something more akin to the shorter and more compact/comprehensive summary sentence I've prepared for the second paragraph there, but could also start with a more in-depth approach of bringing the more full NPOV to the 'Scientific Basis' section further down first, and then preparing a more comprehensive/condensable sentence for the second intro paragraph from there, if preferable hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Or we close this as an unfocused mess that seems to be conflating different issues? Slatersteven (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

How are we conflating different issues here though? The philosophical spiritual and social movement described in this article did found the Waldorf schools, which have demonstrated notable positive empirically measurable impact hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Because the teaching method, is not the philosophy, it is one aspect of it. even a broken clock is right twice a day. Slatersteven (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

even a broken clock is right twice a day—especially schools which cherrypick students from parents who are affluent and well-learned. And let's not forget: they expel students who are lazy, stupid, or misbehaving. While the hurdle for expelling students from vanilla public schools is extremely high. Why did Steve Jobs die? Because he chose alternative medicine. So, you see, even people who are affluent and well-learned do not always choose the best for themselves (and their children). tgeorgescu (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Pseudoscience, again

Hi, Nathanielcwilliams. We are not Kuhnian purists. I don't say that Kuhn isn't important, but he is not begin all and end all. Some epistemic choices have been ready-made for the Wikipedia Community, I mean the website policy WP:PSCI. Or if you want a hardcore introduction to that policy, read WP:LUNATICS.

Stated otherwise, let's say you're studying chemistry. If you learn well the paradigm of chemistry, you become a good chemist-scientist. If you don't, then you become a maverick. Same applies to Wikipedia, but in place of a scientific paradigm we have WP:RULES about which sources are relevant, how to mediate disputes, and so on. One who learns well these rules becomes a good Wikipedian, one who doesn't becomes a maverick and gets blocked and topic-banned. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Kuhn himself opposed the attempts to use his work to support nonsense. Using him for such purposes does not fly. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Mussolini and the label of neognostic heresy

Since I'm taking a break from editing this subject, there is one very big accusation I seek to clear my name of, see User talk:Tgeorgescu/Archives/2023/November#AE discussion closed. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Category

Karen Swartz and Olav Hammer say it is a new religious movement. Martin Gardner called it a cult.

Some have argued that there are court verdicts that Anthroposophy isn't religion ([2]). To such argument I reply:

• the claim that occultism isn't religion is ridiculous on its face (a mockery of justice, a hoax, a farce);
• court verdicts are not WP:RS, and do not trump WP:SCHOLARSHIP; court verdicts are a matter of getting the popcorn;
• I'm not bound by such verdicts. Nor is Gardner, who is now deceased, and could get sued for his 1952/1957 claim for decades. Nor are Swartz and Hammer, whose disregard for such verdicts is obvious. WP:MNA, they were fully aware of such verdicts when they wrote their scholarly article;
• according to WP:NLT, those threatening with court actions should be indeffed on the spot. Yup, even insinuating they are willing to take legal action against me or the WMF means they get banned from Wikipedia;
• in the Netherlands one is allowed to register a penal complaint for libel, but such complaints never get prosecuted. The fact that libel is a felony is "dead letter law";
• I have WP:CITED a plethora of other scholars who state that Anthroposophy is neo-Gnosticism and/or neo-Rosicrucianism, including the view of the Catholic Church that Anthroposophy is heresy (AFAIK the Pope has never retracted it). And that can only be retracted if the Catholic Church loses its theological identity;
• And, yup, I fully agree that the academic field of Western esotericism is not religion, since the religious studies of occultism are not occultism. A researcher of occultism does not even have to endorse occultism or the supernatural. They can very well be materialistic and rationalistic in all their approach to occultism. But Anthroposophy is not religious studies, it is occultism. E.g.:

  • My wife is an expert, among many other things, in Chaucer. She doesn’t “believe” in Chaucer, although she loves the texts and finds them personally important. There are professors in the university who teach the history of communism; most of them are not communists. Others teach the philosophy of Plato; they are not necessarily Platonists. Others teach the history of 20th century Germany; they aren’t Nazis. Others teach criminology; they aren’t necessary mass murderers. ... And so a scholar of Buddhism is not necessarily Buddhist (the ones I know aren’t); a scholar of American fundamentalism is not necessarily an American fundamentalist (one of my colleagues in that field at UNC is an Israeli Jew); a scholar of the history of Catholicism is not necessarily Roman Catholic (another colleague of mine in that field is, again, somewhat oddly, another Israeli Jew); scholars of Islam are not necessarily Muslim (neither of my colleagues in that field are); etc etc.

    — ehrmanblog.org

  • Some people maintain that it is impossible to study Jesus without believing in him. Do you think this is true? Is it true for other areas of academic study? Is it possible, for example, to study Buddhism without being a Buddhist? Or the Dialogues of Socrates without being a Platonist? Or communism without being a Marxist?

    — The Historical Jesus. Part I. Professor Bart D. Ehrman. The Teaching Company, 2000, p. 4

  • We can start the topic by conceding that, just as no modern expert on Plato is expected to be a Platonist (even of the Middle or Neo- sort), no Bible expert should be expected to accept the ideas it puts forth, far less believe in its god(s) or its divine origin.

    — Philip R. Davies, Reading the Bible Intelligently

• I have added more WP:RS which WP:V my claim. If the Antroposophists want to sue, they would have to sue many scholars, from many countries. Two of them could have been sued for decades, eventually they died of old age without getting sued. Shooting the messenger would result in the Streisand effect. Again: the fact that Anthroposophy is a new religious movement is known to scholars for a century, and very recent mainstream WP:SCHOLARSHIP still agrees with that. This is not information Anthroposophists can delete from the public record through barratry (common law);
• Wikipedia:I just don't like it is not a reason for deleting from the article information supported by multiple mainstream WP:RS;
• Also, there is a big difference to be made between Waldorf schools not overtly teaching a religion, and Anthroposophy overtly teaching occultism (which is a religion). While the status of Waldorf schools as religious education has been litigated in the US (not worldwide, mind you), the fact that Anthroposophy is not a religion was part of the 2012 US verdict; but judges are not experts in religious studies, and do not decide matters pertaining solely to WP:SCHOLARSHIP; deciding that is the privilege of the scholarly community, not that of courts of law. E.g. the Camphill movement was found not to be a religious organization for US immigration/visa purposes, but no judgment has been passed upon Anthroposophy itself. Also, the status of being a religious organization is not granted by default in the US, but the organization itself has to actively ask for it (exception: churches);
• Whether Anthroposophy should be considered a religion has been litigated in 2012 in the Eastern District of California. Wikipedia very much privileges the worldwide mainstream academia over issues belonging to national law of some countries/states. Wikipedia serves a global view, not a Californian POV. US courts have no jurisdiction over the free speech of religion scholars all around the world. This is a matter pertaining solely to academic freedom, not to vexatious litigation in some countries/states. Religion scholars have for a century print-published the view that Anthroposophy is a new religious movement, an occultist movement, or an offspring of Christian Gnosticism, or of Christian Rosicrucianism. This is no longer a matter that can be litigated. The conventional wisdom of the mainstream academia can only be changed through peer-reviewed publications, not through litigation. E.g. the existence of quasicrystals was not recognized through court order, but through freely reached scientific consensus. The issue to be litigated would not so much be whether Anthroposophy is a religion according to the US establishment clause, but whether religion scholars should get muzzled. Even a court which wholeheartedly agrees that Anthroposophy isn't religion would knee-jerk reject censoring mainstream scholars who think it is. If it were a court case in the US, Karen Swartz and Robert A. McDermott would be the main culprits, since Martin Gardner and R. McL. Wilson are already dead. If it were a case in the Netherlands, Brill Publishers would be the main culprit, not me, since they have repeatedly published such claim and Gilles Quispel is already dead. Carl Clemen and Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke are dead, so they can't be sued. Every judge would see that the statute of limitations has been largely exceeded. The complaint of Anthroposophists would come so late after the purported damage, that it would be no longer be regarded as a serious complaint. They will have to explain during the trial, "Yes, your honor, the claim we act against was originally published by the University of Chicago Press more than one hundred years ago. And a famous debunker of pseudoscience also made that claim more than seventy years ago. Most of us weren't even born yet, but our feelings were deeply hurt. In total disregard for our emotions, he repeated the claim verbatim five years later." Anthroposophists were lucky because the 2012 verdict wasn't decided according to mainstream religious studies, but they should not push their luck. Since if they litigate it again, and the judge recognizes the religious studies as a legitimate academic field, they're doomed. If the already published peer-reviewed scholarship will decide their fate, they will lose the trial. It's ridiculous to question witnesses in order to find out if they're part of a religion when the mainstream academic view is that they are. Experts in religions have already answered that question.

Conclusion: Don't ventilate court verdicts around here, Wikipedia:We are not as dumb as you think we are. If you are here to deny that Anthroposophy is a religion: that ship has sailed. The dispute lies at the level of emic vs. etic. Hint: Wikipedia rubber-stamps the etic view. Anthroposophists don't agree with mainstream WP:SCHOLARSHIP because they think it is written by Muggles. And, yup, I can grant them this: from the inside it does not look like you are part of a religion, but more like having the secret key to the mysteries of all religions ever. And that secret key lies in Rudolf Steiner's teachings (for beginners) and in Rudolf Steiner's spiritual exercises (for more advanced adepts) + esoteric school (whose teachings are really secret).

Also, my approach isn't "stick it to them", but render the WP:CHOPSY view about Anthroposophy. I am not so much opposed to Anthroposophy as "pushing" the mainstream academic view. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

According to religious studies, Anthroposophy is a religion. I did not find WP:SECONDARY or tertiary WP:RS stating that it isn't a religion.

Hammer, Olav (2008). Geertz, Armin; Warburg, Margit (eds.). New Religions and Globalization. Renner Studies On New Religions. Aarhus University Press. p. 69. ISBN 978-87-7934-681-9. Retrieved 23 January 2024. Anthroposophy is thus from an emic point of view emphatically not a religion. — The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Anthroposophists would have to sue four dozens scholars plus the Pope and Cardinals in order that they publish retractions with peer-review, and the problem is that at least five of those scholars, and several Popes, are unable to publish retractions, due to being deceased. The bottom line is: Wikipedia will no longer accept such information to be retracted (or deleted from the article), it is here to stay. It is too late for the Anthroposophical Society to change anything about that: since too much time has passed since the initial publication of those scholarly papers, the legal claim of the Society is rendered void and meritless. Suing 100 years after the fact (since the claim that Anthroposophy is a new religious movement was published on US soil) means having your lawsuit dismissed out of hand. The lawyer who tells them they could win such case is a conman or a dope addict.

E.g. the book edited by Cusack was introduced as WP:RS by Luciola63, not by me. So, in this respect, I explored a RS which has been added years ago to the article, with no one protesting against its citation. Luciola63 followed the suggestion by HopsonRoad. Similarly, McDermott was WP:CITED as an authority in May 2006 by Clean Copy. Ahern was cited in March 2006 by Tomchat123. Hammer was cited as an authority in May 2007 by an IP and AFAIK never since removed from this article. The International Bureau of Education was WP:CITED in January 2007 by Thebee. Toncheva was WP:CITED by an Anthroposophist editor almost a year ago. Same applies to Gilhus, Tøllefsen and to the book edited by Partridge. So I was by far not the first to cite them here. So, you see, there is nothing particularly new or original in my approach. I don't do original research. And I have simply stated facts known to the educated public since at least 10 years ago. I get the point that some people get angry that Wikipedia says these things about their new religious movement, but don't blame me, since these are facts print-published by mainstream scholars for several decades. We don't play hide and seek with facts known to the mainstream academia for decades, see WP:CENSOR.

Now that Anthroposophy is a new religious movement is WP:V by 5 WP:RS, and 10 other WP:RS which agree with that statement are commented out. So that statement could get 15 references just by un-commenting those references. So, it's one of the most securely established facts about Anthroposophy: most claims from this article are not WP:CITED to so many different mainstream scholars.

List of many

Who says it's a new religious movement or a religion or occultism or a Christian heresy, such as (neo)Gnosticism or (neo)Rosicrucianism? (counting authors + editors of collective books + translators)

1. Jung, Carl Gustav
2. Robertson, David G.
3. Gilmer, Jane
4. Quispel, Gilles
5. Layton, Bentley
6. Oort, Johannes van
7. Carlson, Maria
8. Livak, Leonid
9. McLachlan Wilson, Robert
10. Metzger, Bruce M.
11. Coogan, Michael D.
12. Diener, Astrid
13. Hipolito, Jane
14. Gardner, Martin
15. McDermott, Robert A.
16. Eliade, Mircea
17. Seddon, Richard
18. Goodrick-Clarke, Nicholas
19. Swartz, Karen
20. Hammer, Olav
21. Brandt, Katharina
22. Rothstein, Mikael
23. Geertz, Armin
24. Warburg, Margit
25. Toncheva, Svetoslava
26. Clemen, Carl
27. Frisk, Liselotte
28. Cusack, Carole M.
29. Norman, Alex
30. Zander, Helmut
31. Hoheisel, Karl
32. Hutter, Manfred
33. Klein, Wolfgang Wassilios
34. Vollmer, Ulrich
35. Ellwood, Robert
36. Partin, Harry
37. Winker, Eldon K.
38. Rhodes, Ron
39. Lewis, James R.
40. Tøllefsen, Inga Bårdsen
41. Gilhus, Sælid
42. Bogdan, Henrik
43. Partridge, Christopher
44. Ahlbäck, Tore
45. Schnurbein, Stefanie von
46. Ulbricht, Justus H.
47. Staudenmaier, Peter
48. Hansson, Sven Ove
49. Ahern, Geoffrey
50. Brown, Candy Gunther
51. The Catholic Church (all the Popes and Cardinals, beginning with 1919)

Evidence: User:Tgeorgescu/sandbox2. It lists 31 WP:RS which WP:V the answer to this question.

Note: Diener and Hipolito plead that (maybe) it is not heretical, but what it is then? Religiously orthodox (according to them). So, still a religion — "aspiring to the status of religious dogma" confirms this (page 78).

Also, I am not saying that Jung, the Pope, the Cardinals, Winker, and Rhodes are right. Nor am I saying they are wrong. All I am saying is they are entitled to their own theological opinions, and their opinions are relevant to this article. I am not taking sides whether they express "true" religion vs. "false" religion. I respect learned views (scholarly views), without necessarily claiming they speak WP:THETRUTH. Without implying that either Evangelicalism or Catholicism are "true", I can see why they claim that anthroposophy is a heresy: it abides by a very different set of theological beliefs, so of course the Evangelical or Catholic orthodoxy reject those very different beliefs as being heretical. The claim of anthroposophists that they are theologically non-heretical, compared to mainstream Christianity, is risible. Remember: I'm not saying that mainstream Christianity is right, just that they have different beliefs. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Litigation

E.g. only the Catholic Church is prepared to spend many millions of dollars for defending their legal right to call Anthroposophy a heresy. So, Anthroposophists should be careful if they choose the path of litigation, there are considerably bigger players than them involved in this game. Oh, yes, the Vatican is a sovereign state, so it cannot be juridically coerced to retract it. Legally, the Catholic Church is not a religious organization, but it is a sovereign country. Anthroposophists from California enjoy freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but so do Catholic bishops from California. Coercing those bishops to say that Anthroposophy is not a heresy would violate their Constitutional rights. And they are prepared to litigate tooth and nail for their rights. Same applies to Catholic bishops from the Netherlands or from Switzerland. They have no other option than to see it as a vicious attack against the Church. So, the only avenue for appealing it is convincing the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith that Anthroposophy isn't heretical. But we all know that it does not even stand the chance of a snowball in hell. It's like in that joke wherein the chicken and the pig want to give someone else ham and eggs: for the chicken it's a gift, for the pig it's a sacrifice. Meaning that for Anthroposophists being declared heretics is bad PR, while for the Catholic Church not being able to call Anthroposophy a heresy is an existential threat.

But, wait, aren't my edits a vicious attack against Anthroposophy? Since Wikipedia is a WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia based upon WP:SCHOLARSHIP, Anthroposophists cannot demand that Wikipedia hide properly attested scholarly facts from public view. See WP:CENSOR. What Wikipedia certainly isn't: a PR venue for new religious movements. We do not pander to piety. “Unambiguous exposés of quackery will inevitably appear rude to some people and hurt some feelings. This is a fact of adult life.” Kimball C. Atwood.

Even clearer: the problem of Anthroposophy at Wikipedia isn't me, but mainstream science, mainstream medicine, and mainstream academia. Wikipedia kowtows to these, and they all give the lie to Anthroposophy.

Schnurbein and Ulbricht published their claim more than 20 years ago, so that's also very much past the statute of limitations inside German law. If the Anthroposophical Society did not win by now the trial against Schnurbein and Ulbricht, it no longer has a case against declaring Anthroposophy a religion, in the German-speaking countries. And the journal of the International Bureau of Education stated that Anthroposophy is a religion twice before I was even born. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Original research

Court documents are not WP:RS. If no WP:RS rendered the conclusion that verdict, the verdict itself is unusable for Wikipedia.

There are more than 30 WP:RS which support the point that Anthroposophy is a religion, or a new religious movement, or a Christian heresy. No WP:RS has been WP:CITED for the opposite POV.

Before you ask: yes, I have WP:CITED court verdicts before. But never for claims which cannot be WP:V to WP:SECONDARY sources.

Let me say this: I don't contest the result of the verdict, it is just that no WP:RS has reported the verdict remaining definitive (final). An information which made it to no WP:RS is not Wikipedia-worthy, even if it is formally true.

This source only reports the verdict as being a provisional result, and does not exactly agree that Anthroposophy isn't religion. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Evidence

Evidence of WP:MEAT: Google "VANDALIZED by one guy — Tgeorgescu — with an axe to grind — trying to prove that Anthroposohpy is racist — making over 100 edits to the Anthroposophy article — when i know for a fact that Anthroposophists are the most inclusive, open, and diverse group. was so shocked when a friend who had asked me about. Anthroposophy thought i was Racist — because it was the first thing she read on Wikipedia — until i read the. EDIT HISTORY — over a 100 edits from one guy — Tgeorgescu — grrr someone help me get this Vandal out of Wikipedia — with his lies. if you".

Also Google "this guy Tgeorgescu is shitting all over Anthroposophy — and it is not right to let his lies stand. please help get the word out. thanks jp".

Date: 19 October 2023.

Hard to miss: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%22shitting+all+over+Anthroposophy%22

John Penner

January 3 at 2:55 AM ·

calling for a bit of help here — to help with some Vandalism to the wikipedia article for Anthroposophy Wikipedia Article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy

if you check the Wikipedia Edit HISTORY — you can see how the Anthroposophy entry has been VANDALIZED by one guy — Tgeorgescu — with an axe to grind — trying to prove that Anthroposohpy is racist — making over 100 edits to the Anthroposophy article — when i know for a fact that Anthroposophists are the most inclusive, open, and diverse group. i was so shocked when a friend who had asked me about Anthroposophy thought i was Racist — because it was the first thing she read on Wikipedia — until i read the EDIT HISTORY — over a 100 edits from one guy — Tgeorgescu — grrr 😡

someone help me get this Vandal out of Wikipedia — with his lies. if you could spend a couple minutes to login to Wikipedia and correct just one statement in the article — that would be of use — because right now — this guy Tgeorgescu is shitting all over Anthroposophy — and it is not right to let his lies stand. please help get the word out. thanks jp

Full quote. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

**** Wikipedia is not an advertising billboard. Just because members of the MGTOW community don't like this article doesn't mean it's biased. Wikipedia is designed to be written from a neutral point of view, not a promotional point of view. In the case of fringe opinions, such as MGTOW, Flat Earth Society, etc., the proponents of such opinions are as a rule never satisfied with the consensus version of the article. That doesn't mean Wikipedia should completely avoid covering such topics. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Penner's ire seems to be directed against me having read WP:RS known to the mainstream academia for decades, see WP:CENSOR. I mean: the basic WP:RS about racism is a PhD thesis from the Ivy League, 14 years ago. He seems to think that the most germane facts, from the most illustrious sources, should be left unsaid, just because otherwise people might call him a racist. “Unambiguous exposés of quackery will inevitably appear rude to some people and hurt some feelings. This is a fact of adult life.” Kimball C. Atwood. Removing citations to WP:SCHOLARSHIP because some people might get offended would mean putting the axe at the root of Wikipedia. I'm not saying that I would WP:OWN the article, but mainstream scholars collectively own it. As Bon courage put it, Wikipedia does not deal in your "truth", but reflects accepted knowledge.

The problems with "it is not right to let his lies stand":

• these are not "lies", but academic insights published in sources having proper editorial control and fact-checking;
• even if we would admit for the sake of argument that these are lies, why would they be my lies, instead of Staudenmaier's or Hammer's lies?

He is wrong that the enemy is me, rather than mainstream professors in general. I'll explain you how it works: I don't have to be faithful to Rudolf Steiner, I have to be faithful to sources written by mainstream professors. If he has an argument that I'm not faithful to such sources, let him speak.

So, yes, there is a difference between WP:THETRUTH of Anthroposophy and the mainstream academic view about Anthroposophy. These are not upon the same page. Many of the sources/scholars which I have WP:CITED were already mentioned by Anthroposophic editors, so my only guilt is that of reading what those sources/scholars wrote. He blames me for compiling this "press review", instead of blaming the people who wrote the original papers. So, when the pro-Anthroposophy faction cites Hammer, it is perfectly all right, but when I cite Hammer, it is "murder in the astral plane". When I dare to WP:CITE the same authors/UNESCO journals as WP:CITED by Luciola63, HopsonRoad, Clean Copy, Tomchat123, Thebee, Butterfly or Chuang Tzu?, and SamwiseGSix, it suddenly becomes highly contentious. That is the very definition of "rules for thee, but not for me". HopsonRoad does not seem to be pro-Anthroposophic, but the rest of those mentioned do seem.

If what I wrote in the article would be just my own views, it would be easy-peasy to get this article rid of my own opinions. I don't get published at the Royal Brill Publishers, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, MIT Press, or Yale University Press. The scholars whom I have cited do.

In a nutshell: Anthroposophists have the legal right to hold WP:FRINGE views, and mainstream professors have the legal right to criticize WP:FRINGE views.

And as argued by Munoz in his PhD thesis, if you assume people only have one life on Earth, then Anthroposophy is certainly racist. But if you assume that people reincarnate in various races, then it's not racist. So, yes, for people who don't believe in reincarnation, it is a perfectly cogent view that Anthroposophy is racist. Of course, Anthroposophists believe in reincarnation, so they think that the mainstream view upon Anthroposophy is dead wrong. So, I don't say that Penner has to agree with me that Anthroposophy is racist, but has to understand that since most people and most mainstream professors don't believe in reincarnation, that's the mainstream view. Sometimes WP:SCHOLARSHIP does have metaphysical assumptions, and here is not the place to WP:RGW about it. In the end, Wikipedia serves the mainstream academic paradigm, not an WP:IN-UNIVERSE view. And the problem with the pro-Anthroposophy faction is that they don't understand very well the fact that Wikipedians are only here to serve the mainstream academic paradigm. Wikipedians are not the masters of Wikipedia, they are its servants. And we don't edit Wikipedia for aggrandizing our own religion, but for rendering mainstream academic knowledge about religion.

I'm not saying that reincarnation is impossible, just that it isn't the mainstream view, nor the mainstream academic view. That is, the mainstream academic view is that reincarnation is mythology. It could be true, it could be false, but since there is no way to know, scholars call it mythology. Or, if you prefer, it is a religious belief. Anthroposophists say reincarnation is science (meaning an objectively assessable fact about the spiritual world), but nope, it isn't science, it is a religious belief (meaning a subjective opinion).

I saw an article at medium.com wherein its author (Q. G. Wingfield) is persuaded I'm the author of these opinions. The Anthroposophists are extremely concerned with the fact that I'm citing learned opinions online, but they do not seem concerned with the fact that these opinions were print-published in the first place, and also stored in online repositories (that is: I wasn't the person who stored them there). And, again, many times the pro-Anthroposophic editors have provided the WP:RS I have WP:CITED. So, yes, the charge boils down to: I have dared to read the WP:RS which the pro-Anthroposophy faction has produced in defense of Anthroposophy. They have WP:CITED some sources in order to defend their own religion, and now they get terribly angry that I actually read those sources.

Clearly expressed at [3] by a Waldorf teacher that The article references peer-reviewed, largely academic sources, the opposite of propaganda. This is WP:PAG: citing mainstream academic RS about Anthroposophy is the opposite of propaganda. I.e. propaganda is banned from Wikipedia according to WP:SOAP. Rendering the mainstream academic view is not propaganda. So, what I do here counts as propaganda only for people who think that academic criticism is an insidious plot. Plot initiated by the Academy of Gondishapur according to Steinerian mythology.

There are millions who believe that Ancient astronauts is gospel truth. Yet Wikipedia correctly labels it as racist pseudohistory. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Ha, ha, ha, Wingfield, who first invited me to openly debate the issue, has blocked me on Medium.com. And I was on their page extremely polite, towards them, Anthroposophy, and even Rudolf Steiner. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

So? this is not about them, take it to their talk page. Slatersteven (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK they are not a Wikipedian. If you want, you may request the closure of these discussions.

Anyway, what I've meant is: I have provided evidence of meatpuppetry at Facebook, Medium.com and /r/WikipediaVandalism. That's why I discussed those venues. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry, again

What strikes me is that Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner have been edited by many WP:SPAs and throw-away accounts. They have one or two short bursts of edits, then they cease editing for good.

So, yes, I guess it is more like astroturfing than having many persons who tried to edit the article. Why do I think that? Because they all misunderstood Wikipedia in the same way. If there were many newbies, we would expect they misunderstand Wikipedia in different ways. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism

I will tell you what would be vandalism: suppose I no longer like my own edits and I would seek to delete big chunks from the article because those were added by me. That would be vandalism, and I would rightfully get blocked for doing it. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The main difference between me and Mr. Penner: he is concerned with the public image of Anthroposophy, while I am concerned with WP:V objective historical facts. He cannot cancel objective historical facts with concerns about public image. Apples and oranges. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Removal of information

See Talk:Rudolf Steiner#Drop the claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:40, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Updating references

I have updated references. I have properly WP:CITED many already existing references, but often I do not know their page numbers, so I cannot provide those. And I certainly did not check them if they pass WP:V. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Roots of anthroposophy

Querying the following line from the lede:

Anthroposophy has its roots in German idealism, mystical philosophies, and pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience

Which sources state that the roots of anthroposophy include pseudoscience? As opposed to the content of anthroposophy? (For example Staudenmaier's "Race and Redemption" article refers to roots in Theosophy only, as far as I can tell.) Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

After reading every one of the many sources quoted (the exception is Christian Clement's work, which I have not yet access to), these are those that actually address the origins of anthroposophy:

1. Staudenmaier 2008: “origins in modern Theosophy…Western and Eastern Esoteric beliefs“ pp. 4-5
2. Staudenmaier 2010, based on “German cultural values”
3. Dugan 2002, p. 32, origins in "Buddhism and Hinduism (reincarnation and karma), Zoroastrianism (light and dark gods), Manichaean and Gnostic Christianity, and European esoteric traditions including Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, and herbalism"

I am rewriting the passage to reflect the sources that actually comment on the roots. Please do add more sources that actually discuss this directly! (I have left off one source that vaguely cited 'German cultural values' as a source, however. It seems too diffuse and there are better sources.

I have also tried to rearrange the lede more thematically. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Nazi era history moved

The history of anthroposophy runs from 1901-2024 and across more than 80 countries. The lede should not focus primarily on the period 1933-1945 in Germany. I have therefore moved the extensive detailing of this period from the lede into the body of the article. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 18:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

We cannot write if there are no WP:RS. For anthroposophy in Nazi Germany there are several high-quality WP:IS. I did not research the matter, but some WP:IS are already WP:CITED, e.g. about Anthroposophy in Norway and so on. Those sources have not been employed to their full extent.

The fact that Anthroposophists started a farm in this village, a school in that town, a bank in another town, is business as usual, so by far less interesting than what happened in Nazi Germany.

E.g., Anthroposophists think that starting their own banks is a fact of mystical significance for the fate of Planet Earth, while mainstream historians think that is a boring, petty fact. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Univocality

In respect to the claims about Steiner's Docetism, Adoptionism, Nestorianism, and Gnosticism: I don't believe in the univocality of the Bible, why I would believe in the univocality of mainstream WP:SCHOLARSHIP? tgeorgescu (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Spiritualist movement

I don't pretend that "spiritualist movement" is either true or false. It is simply how Anthroposophy got called by mainstream scholars.

The bar of others have variously called it is a pretty low bar. And if "spiritualist movement" has to go, then "spiritual science" has to go, too, because that's a claim pertaining to nl:Wij van Wc-eend adviseren Wc-eend. Meaning: WP:IS do not buy into the claim that Anthroposophy is a spiritual science. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Violation of WP:PSCI

@Johnrpenner: You're violating WP:PSCI. Anthroposophic medicine and biodynamic agriculture make a lot of claims about the real-world (i.e. falsifiable), as Steiner also did. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Reverting Usefful Edits

instead of just deleting a whole bunch of stuff, why not engage in something more constructive?

i have removed none of the points that were in the original edit, nor any of the references.

im sure we can make this article better together.

Johnrpenner (talk) 23:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The "diagnosis" that Anthroposophy has nothing to do with physics is yours, and yours alone. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

actually — im very happy that you make the challenges. too many sheep will just accept what they read, and a lot of the anthroposophists are sheep 🐑 and dont think critically enough.

• the changes ive made nowhere dispell the notion that anthroposophy should not be treated uncritically, nor have a deleted a single refernence that was existing in the article — so that they could be followed up and investigated.

• what the article did lack was —> how does Anthroposophy distinguish itself epistemologically from other views — such as Critical Idealism? this would be something useful if i knew nothing about the topic.

• also the intro did mention that it has its roots in German Idealism — without mentioning its leading proponent — Goethe, and the role of Intuition being the connecting link to the spiritual world.

we may agree to disagree about whether the so-called spiritual world is perceptible via the faculity of intution — but to say that this is what is believed by Anthroposophists would not be untrue, and i would consider this detail (about intuition being the connecting link) to be a useful addition to the article for anyone unfamiliar with the subject.

ive been a technical writer, and can help make this a better article. im not here to fight, but to improve.

cheers john penner

Johnrpenner (talk) 23:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@Johnrpenner: Again, you're violating website policy (WP:PSCI). tgeorgescu (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

i doubt anyone is truly neutral in this. you certainly seem to have invested considerable effort to make your points — and if this is done to the end of improving the article, and making a subject more unstandable. then all good. — the points: i) i have not deleted a single reference that existed in the article, i was careful to retain them. ii) what the article lacked was 'how does Anthroposophy distinguish itself epistemologically from other views' — and this is a valid question which is not violating a neutral point of view to answer. iii) including the detail that Goethe in particular instead of alluding only to 'German Romanticism' is also not violating NPOV, and iv) mentioning the role of Intution is simply stating that 'this is their point of view', and not advocating for or against it — and therefore also not violating NPOV.

the criticisms and critics you have so far referenced do make a case of condemning the Anthroposophists — but if one sees only efforts directed at this — then i might also question how neutral things are — without contributing anything that might help provide insight on the given topic.

cheers! Johnrpenner (talk) 00:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

See WP:NOTNEUTRAL, WP:GOODBIAS, WP:LUNATICS, and so on.

You seek to reject the label of pseudoscience as a category mistake, through performing sheer WP:OR.

The website policy WP:PSCI is itself biased against pseudoscience.

While I do have my own opinions, I don't ventilate my own opinions inside the article, but let WP:RS speak (Oxford University Press, MIT Press, etc.). tgeorgescu (talk) 00:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

anthroposophy is not science — nor is the study of philosphy.

it is not my role to vent opinions in the article, but to make the subject comprehensible & accurate.

from WP:RNPOV — In the case of beliefs and practices, Wikipedia content should not only encompass what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices but also account for how such beliefs and practices developed.

Johnrpenner (talk) 00:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Johnrpenner: I have already reported you at WP:AE, so admins will be the judge of this dispute. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

thats a really constructive way to improve an article. 🙄 Johnrpenner (talk) 02:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

If you insist to breach website policy: yes, it is. I don't have any other choice.

Since you're not willing to obey our WP:RULES, obedience for our WP:RULES has to be administratively enforced. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

We describe subjects how reliable sources describe them. Even if that means doing so in a way that might seem biased to those related to the subject. For example, we call homeopathy a pseudoscience whose beliefs are contradictory to all modern sciences. Practitioners of homeopathy likely consider this biased, but that's what reliable sources say about the subject.
— User:EvergreenFir

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 01:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Have you read "Why Does Wikipedia Want to Destroy Deepak Chopra?" If Anthroposophists don't complain that Wikipedia wants to destroy Rudolf Steiner, we are doing a bad job. If anything can be said about the two men is that Chopra is considerably less fringe than Steiner. Chopra never belonged to völkisch Wagner clubs, and has never claimed to be a clairvoyant. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Collaborating to Make a better Article

dear mr Tgeorgescu -- lets make this article article better together.

if you dont like the characterisitian that Anthroposohpy is not a study of physics (it isnt) — then edit that out. it is rude to just delete everything you dont agree with. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Johnrpenner (talk) 23:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

"Collaborating to Make a better Article" is what this whole page is about. But you are not doing it. You are introducing your own WP:POV, violating WP:PSCI, then edit-warring by reverting the revert. Read WP:BRD to find out how to behave in such situations.

This is not about deleting "everything you dont agree with", it is about following the rules. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:12, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Yup, the idea that Anthroposophy is 100% metaphysics and 0% empirical claims does not appear in mainstream WP:RS. And I could bet in does not appear in the books published by Rudolf Steiner Press or the Temple Lodge. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:16, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Objective

@Fehyv: "Objective" refers to Platonic realism (i.e. metaphysics). "More objective" refers to epistemology. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)