Talk:Yard (sailing)

I don't know if it should be noted here, or not, that the expression sun over the yardarm comes from the English navy. The first rum of the day was issued when the sun rose over the topmost yardarm. --138.88.209.243 19:39, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And when the sun sank over the yard arm later in the day, the Officers would retire to their bar. MikeMorley 10:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

"Most of what appears on this page relates not to a yardarm but to a yard"

I believe this is technically correct, but putting a note in the first paragraph saying, essentially, "this whole page is wrong" doesn't exactly increase credibility. Is it worth moving the page, for example to yard (sailing)? PeteVerdon 10:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well done! It is now much better. I put the edit quoted above, into the article as an emergency measure when I saw how misleading the article was. There is one more thing though:-

"Sun over the yardarm"

As presented, this section still calls a yard a yardarm.

The yardarm is the outermost part (_A Sea of Words_) of the yard. The sun won't be over the yard until it is over the yardarm. If you are eager for your first drink of the day, you won't wait until the sun is over the middle of the yard, but only until it is over the tip or end of the yard. So, whether the drink is kosher depends on whether the sun is over the yardarm. Therefore, the section does not call a yard a yardarm.

I think, though I have no reference, that the phrase relates to the time of day when the sun might cast the shadow of one of the yardarms on the deck. In other words, when viewed from the weather deck, the elevation of the sun is greater than that of the yardarm (the end of the yard). Insofar as the phrase had currency, it was a means of limiting drinking time so as to maintain sobriety among officers. If nobody has a credible reference, it may be best to ditch the whole section. (RJP 13:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC))

: I don't know whether _World Wide Words_ is credible, but it claims to own the language we're using here. We seem to be plagiarizing. If we didn't originate this language, we should put the stolen language in quotation marks and offer a citation. (wiploc 4 November 2013 )

I don't think there's any need to get rid of it, but there has been some twaddle written about it here and in the article. I would rewrite it except that I don't really understand the mechanics. Firstly, the ship's heading and lattitude will surely affect the timing (as will which yard you choose to use, though that could be standardised). Secondly, the sun rising over the yard will surely happen at (very roughly) 9 or 10 o'clock in the morning, which is certainly not a good time to start drinking.

I like to picture it this way: Put your ship on the equator, and becalm it: no wind or waves. Point it straight north. Square the sails so the yards are pointed straight east/west. Now you face forward with your back to the mainmast. The sun rises to your right. Point at it with your right hand. Keep pointing at it as the sun rises. If we use the HMS Dolphin as our standard (http://www.google.com/imgres?start=107&safe=active&sa=X&biw=1013&bih=482&tbm=isch&tbnid=rwIsnH6LwEU8UM:&imgrefurl=http://snakeladylibrarian.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/what-were-reading-matey/&docid=WT5WQHtz-A6NAM&imgurl=http://snakeladylibrarian.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/pirateshiip1.jpg&w=819&h=526&ei=1Il4UtOEMejayAGCzYHABA&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:20,s:100,i:64&iact=rc&page=10&tbnh=180&tbnw=280&ndsp=15&tx=145&ty=81) it will be about mid-morning (45 degree angle) when the hand that is pointing at the sun will also start pointing at the main yard. I'm not going to do the math, but it looks to me like you might point at the end of the topgallant yard at about eleven o'clock. If that's not quite right, well, some ships had taller or shorter masts. Now imagine your midshipmen out practicing with their sextants on one of the ships that has a main topgallant yard with exactly the right proportions of width and height. They notice that the sun touches the end of the yard at eleven o'clock, and they notice that spirits are served at eleven o'clock, and the world gets a new phrase. (wiploc 4 November 2013 )

It is very much a real phrase, with a connection to this article, so I'd like to include it. But we'll have to find out a bit more about it first. PeteVerdon 17:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You express the problem well but I don't think anyone has the answer. I suspect that it was a humorous expression using the concept of solar elevation to express the idea that one should not start drinking too early in the day. (RJP 19:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC))

I've rewritten the section, including its current use, why it probably wasn't used as claimed, and a little bit of research into its origins. Personally, I suspect it was coined as upper/upper-middle class Victorian slang, perhaps by colonial administrators and Army officers after their troopship journeys to their posts in India and back. I've got no evidence for that apart from Kipling, though, so the article can't say any more than it does. PeteVerdon 00:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I've again rewritten the section citing my sources. I think the rewrite should be self-explanatory, and I've removed the speculative parts. TrevorD 17:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The provenance of this expression surely predates 1883. In 1874, it was used in a South Australian newspaper to describe persons inebriated early in the day, and type-set in quotes, as though citing a well-known phrase. Bluedawe 06:48, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

More rum

I've removed this from the article, where it had for some reason been added to the 'See Also' section:

Although non-commissioned officers (n.c.o.) were allowed to drink their rum ration neat, commissioned officers did not partake of the daily rum ration, and there was no allowance in the rum taken on board for them to do so.

Very unofficially, a popular officer may well receive an invitation to sample a tot during up spirits.

This has nothing to do with yards, and I suspect it's somebody's memories from the modern (though pre-1970) Navy so it would have little to do with sun/yardarms either. It's copied here so that it can be moved elsewhere (perhaps Rum#Naval_Rum ?) if somebody wants to do so.

Manning the yards of the ARM Cuauhtémoc

I removed the sentence below, not because it was missing a citation, but because when you follow the links to the wiki page about the ARM Cuauhtémoc (BE01), the photo of the ship clearly shows that the majority of the crew on the yards are standing in the footropes with the only notable exceptions being those stationed on the bunt near the mast where access to the foot ropes would have been impeded. -- Orion oxotnik (talk) 18:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The Mexican Navy's training ship Cuauhtémoc is famous for manning its yards with its crew standing on the yards themselves, rather than in footropes.