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Names

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Muine Bheag / Muinebheag / Muinebeg / Bagenalstown.

We could do with a consolidated paragraph on the various names! (< reminder to self). -- Picapica 11:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hopefully a little clearer, Irish is a language full of variation. Djegan 16:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Grma, a Djegan. Some info (from twin town Pont-Péan) which I am parking here, pending incorporation into the article:

In 1932 the Town Commission passed a vote, officially naming the town Muinebheag, without consulting the people. Some called it one name and others called it another name, and so it was for 43 years. In 1975 Carlow County Council held a Plebiscite so that the people of the town would decide which name it would be. The total poll turn out was only 50% and of that the majority of votes came out for Bagenalstown. But as it was a plebiscite, the majority poll required to carry would have to have been 75%. So officially the name is Bagenalstown-Muinebheag, whichever one you like.
En 1932, la Commission de la ville vota pour appeler la ville officiellement Muinebheag, mais sans consulter la population. Alors certains l'appelaient Muinebheag et d'autres Bagenalstown et ceci durant 43 ans. En 1975 le Conseil Départemental de Carlow déclara un plébiscite pour que la ville puisse choisir un des noms. La participation fut de 50% en faveur de Bagenalstown, la majorité devant être de 75% le nom officiel est donc Bagenalstown-Muinebheag, au désir de chacun! -- Picapica 08:47, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have cited the name, of the town, as it appears in the Local Government Act, 2001 whilst this act does not state that the name of "Muinebheag" is the official name of the town the fact that it names it as such and that the term is more widely used or used in a more prominantly than "Bagenalstown" throughout the Irish Statute Book gives it some weight, also the town council itself uses the former term, the term "Muine Bheag" is used somewhat particularily in older orders whilst "Muinebeg" is unused. Ultimately it is somewhat an academic question, as with many Irish language terms their is a certain amount of ambiguity which is not helped by the differences between old and new Irish and their is info on my talk page regarding recent developments about name of places in Irish and the Official Languages Act. Djegan 19:04, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Name

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This should probably be under Muine Bheag, rather than Muinebeag. See logainm.ie for the official name:http://www.logainm.ie/?text=muine+bheag&placeID=3405. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 00:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Sarah777 (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently states: "The English name "Bagenalstown" is more commonly used, but "Muinebeag" is the official name of the town while the variation "Muine Bheag" is more commonly used, and is often used in speech as "Muinebeg"." So, 'Bagenalstown' is more commonly used, and 'Muine Bheag' is (also) more commonly used?? If someone understands the intent, perhaps they would rewrite it more intelligibly. Are there references for any of this?
--Yumegusa (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Names and google

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B = Bagenalstown, A = Muine Bheag

Bagenalstown has over 40,000 hits, Muine Bheag has about 21,000. That reflects the reality - everyone still calls it Bagenalstown.86.42.240.22 (talk) 14:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If that were true surely you'd expect Bagenalstown to have 61,000 hits? Sarah777 (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily.... --HighKing (talk) 15:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can't see how A is a subset of B in this case. Sarah777 (talk) 12:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've lived in south County Kildare all my life and I have never once heard it called Muine Bheag in conversation by us natives. It's a new thing for civil servants and blow-ins. The Bagenal part is 2 syllables: Bag Nall. As I am an "irish at national school and left young" person, I looked it up and muine doesn't mean thicket - unless in an obscure very local dialect. So as well as being brand new, it is also bad Irish. Muine means manners, in my book, and I suggest that "Little manners" is a joke cooked up by some civil servant with a weird sense of humour.Red Hurley (talk) 11:34, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't in any way wish to offend Red Hurley, but I must say that his rather ludicrous and ill-informed speculations on the origins of "Muine Bheag" were most amusing. May I suggest that he should avoid this kind of thing unless he is actually familiar with the subject or has done some proper research into it? Again, none of this is said wtih intent to offend and I am sure that he has contributions of value to make on subjects which he is more knowledgeable on.

Let me present the true facts as far as I understand them. Walter Bagenal founded the town in the eighteenth century at a place known in Irish as Muine Bheag. Alongside "Bagenalstown", there persisted this Irish name with the Anglicisations of Moneybeg and even Moonbeg, which are found on some old documents. At the time of Independence in the twentieth century, English had established itself as the locality's sole vernacular speech, and Bagenalstown was established as the most common English name. The decision was nevertheless taken to officially establish the Irish name Muinebheag/Muine Bheag in both languages. The anglicisation Muinebeg is also used. All these versions are still used, although my personal impression is that Bagenalstown remains clearly most common in ordinary speech among locals. Visitors may find the multiple versions confusing, and it is what meant for example that there were established side by side in the same town the Muine Bheag Fire Station and the Bagenalstown Health Centre. In fact a plebiscite was held on the name issue in 1975 but could make no final decision due I believe to low turnout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.203.35 (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

...and the low turnout was most likely because everyone called it Bagenalstown then, and still does. It's a bit like Daingean Uí Chúis / Dingle.Red Hurley (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Time to formally rename the article per WP:COMMONNAME

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It is clear from past discussions, the inquorate plebiscite (50% voted 70+/30 to move back to Bagenalstown), and sources, Google, etc., that the common name should be Bagenalstown. It's certainly the only thing one hears locally / when visiting. And our policies are clear. Not Muine Beag, and certainly not Muinebeag, etc. Are there any real objections? SeoR (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@SeoR: I'd support a move. The article is clearly misnamed. Zacwill (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I was in Kilkenny (neighbouring) some years ago it was usually referred to as Moneybeg Sarah777 (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As a Carlow woman, I have to say that it will always be Bagnalstown to me! It appears that this is still the most commonly used name for this town? I know that Google hits don't tell the whole story, but I think here it is indicative. Smirkybec (talk) 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 August 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus leaning towards Bagenalstown being the common name, noting that Muine Bheag is the official name of the town is agreed upon on both sides of the votes.

Side note: TIL on endonym and exonym. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Muine Bheag → Bagenalstown – "Muine Bheag" is the name favoured by officialdom, but "Bagenalstown" is undoubtedly the WP:COMMONNAME, returning over four times as many results on Google. Going by the 1975 plebiscite, it's also the town's preferred self-designation. Zacwill (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - People love to reference Google hits, but if you look at Google trends (actual peoples searches, not number of pages (incl. spam?), Muine Bheag actually beats it, and that is not even including the term Muinebheag without the space. Google Trends to compare. I don't think Bagenalstown is undoubtedly the Common name. The official name would be the town's preferred self designation? Not an almost 50 year old poorly turnout poll. Since it is so close, I vote in favour of keeping it Muine Bheag. ~ Ablaze (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a regular user so I'm not "voting" but you guys have a policy to prefer the commonly used name, and there's only one of those in this case - "Bag'nals town" is how we say it, Bagenalstown is the spelling. Maybe by coincidence, it has an element like "Beag" but the two languages have different bases. And FYI, the poll was not badly turned out - more than 50% of the population voted, more than in many major elections, referenda, etc. It's just there was a target of 75% for a binding vote. And >75% of that 50% voted for the proper name. A previous poll by one or two local newspapers had a similar outcome, 3:1 in favour of Bagenalstown. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have noticed a flaw in the cited Google Trends comparison in which the town is selected for "Muine Bheag" instead of the search term. In my comparisons (Google Trends (Bagenalstown vs Muine Bheag in Ireland since 2004)) I have made three tweaks in which I selected the search term as well as narrowing down my comparison to searches from Ireland (considering Wikipedia prefers the formal dialect of a country to be used if there are strong national ties to the topic (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English)) and to searches since 2004 in which there appears to be a strong surge towards "Bagenalstown" over the intervening years. Tk420 (talk) 06:47, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - not least because Wikipedia sometimes refuses to use the WP:COMMONNAME for entire countries, never mind villages. Self-designation isn't the deciding factor on Wiki, as illustrated by the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who live in the country of Ireland refer to the place as simply Ireland - yet Wiki is still using a "description" instead of the name! The current article name for Mhuine Beg is the official name of the town, and is commonly used, usually in the anglicised form of "Moneybeg". Sarah777 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What has the naming of the article for Ireland / RoI got to do with this? And anyway, while "the Republic" and "RoI" are inferior, they are used every single day by Irish government bodies, newspapers and academics, to be clear which bit of the island is referred to. And "Republic of Ireland" is enshrined in law for 70+ years. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. The state is commonly referred to as simply "Ireland" - in exactly the same way you claim that "Bagnelstown" is common usage. Except, Muine Bheag is manifestly the official name of this town, just as Ireland is manifestly the official name of this state. A bit of consistency would help here. Sarah777 (talk) 03:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - per previous discussions above, road signs, tourist literature (e.g. https://carlowtourism.com/bagenalstown-map/), the past poll (a clear if not quorate result), and multiple book references. And my own experience supports - I've heard Bagenalstown (mostly), Moneybeg (a little) and never, ever heard anyone actually call it Muine Bheag or Muinebeag - in Google, these will get hits just because of the dubious (no discussion at all of that undemocratic move) official naming. All names will remain mentioned, of course. SeoR (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I reinforce my !vote, and hope I also partly answer Asarlaí, with a check on one of Ireland's better general reliable sources, the paper of record, the Irish Times - a quick search gives 237 hits for Bagenalstown, and 12 for Muine Bheag. Now both of those numbers could be cut, taking out a few results as Gaeilge, and others, but I think this is still fairly indicative. I also note that Smirkybec has looked at substantial local sources below. SeoR (talk) 20:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Irish Times ceased to even claim to be a "paper of record" about 15 years ago! Sarah777 (talk) 03:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but it is still considered so by many, and it’s anyway one of the main RS for Ireland. It’s not perfect, makes mistakes, has a property bias, etc. But anyway, its archives overwhelmingly support the Bagenalstown name. I really don’t see anything controversial in this move request, it seems obvious, and our current naming position, using an undemocratically-adopted, largely unused, official name, is not a plus for Wikipedia. It would be like having Kell under Ceannais or Navan at An Uaimh. Seriously, does anyone have a good argument for the current naming? SeoR (talk) 08:08, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as per SeoR above and previous discussions. As someone from Carlow, it has always been Bagnelstown in conversation and in any histories I have read related to the area for my whole life. Smirkybec (talk) 20:32, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as others list above, this is the common name in use in and about the town. It is also in the title of the two volumes of local history, all the tourist information leaflets, and many local businesses. Muine Bheag has no local usage at all and not much in academia either, it's an !official invention! 93.107.40.190 (talk) 12:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good on ya - Myles whats-his-name produced two detailed local history books, and they're called "Bagenalstown: A step back in time, people, churches, land, buildings, mountain, river and canal" 1 and 2, with not a "Muine" in sight. 185.114.163.227 (talk) 16:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What evidence from Ablaze? A Google search on its own is not verification of anything, this needs proper sources, and both primary and secondary favour Bagenalstown. Someone mentioned books, and for the rest we should look to newspapers, maps and so on. Note that the Irish-language name has been pushed officially (but not accepted in normal usage), which is a distorting factor. I'm Dublin myself, so I can't speak to deep local knowledge but editor Smirkybec above has local background and can probably point to solid local sources. On a quick check, I found:
From a summary of the local history book: "A chapter on Moneybeg, an area situated on the outskirts of the town, provides interesting reading and has a close association to the Irish name for the town." So it seems Moneybeg isn't even an alternative for the whole town.
From the official local authority tourism site: "Bagenalstown, also known as Muine Bheag in Irish" which is unequivocal as to the name in English.
Even the less-research-based Wikivoyage better summarises the situation than Wikipedia, which is embarrassing: "Muine Bheag, meaning "small thicket", is the official name of the town known in English as Bagenalstown." So again clear recognition that the name in English is . . . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.6.3 (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just had a look at real sources and newspapers and local organisations and these speak to "Bagenalstown" as the English language name, with "Muine Bheag" perhaps relevant to the Irish-language Wikipedia. Even the GAA, for heavens sake, is "Bagenalstown Gaels", not to speak of the soccer club, the credit union, charities, and so on. I did not find a single "Muine Bheag" organisation yet, though I'm sure something exists. 86.44.6.3 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also not convinced by the evidence cited by Ablaze and Asarlaí, as mentioned and to expand a little:
  • Carlow Tourism only refers to the area as Bagenalstown. Moneybeg is the townland, not the town.
  • In local historical literature the 2016 index of the Carloviana journal lists entries under Bagenalstown with Muine Bheag listed as see Bagenalstown.
  • The local Chamber of Commerce uses Bagenalstown, and is what the local paper (The Nationalist) refers to the town as.
  • The recent local history by Myles Kavanagh is Bagenalstown, A Step Back in Time (2021). Smirkybec (talk) 18:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The local Catholic parish also uses Bagenalstown. Smirkybec (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A few more examples that speak to local, common usage:
Comment on my evidence. The actual reason given under the request for move was: returning over four times as many results on Google, yet when I respond to results vs. trends it was dismissed as not a proper souce, yet the the original request is fine? ~ Ablaze (talk) 11:24, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You can support a nomination while not thinking much of the rationale offered. Scolaire (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, the GAA may use Bagenalstown but the camogie club goes by Muinebheag. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:35, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:28, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On a point of policy, we do not rely on official naming as a default - the rule is "what is most commonly in use". That Muine Bheag is the official name is not in dispute, and the dubious origin of that naming is explained above, and official bodies have had to use it, but it never changed what people en masse actually called the town. As an aside, we could also look to other encyclopedias, but this small town did not make Britanica, for example (and then again, Britanica has County Laois as Laoighis, so it might not be fully solid on these matters). I find Smirkybec's points re. local bodies, Met Eireann and even DAFT quite convincing. SeoR (talk) 19:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The streetview check is a useful one, and if you go a little further back, all the signs on motorway and major road exits, and at Leighlinbridge, use only Bagenalstown. SeoR (talk) 19:49, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are missing the point that WP:COMMONNAME, is happily ignored when it suits, such as in the naming of the article for this country. Maybe we could copy that example and use a disambiguation term instead of a placename for Muine Bheag?
If it's appropriate in the case of Ireland, where RoI is neither the most commonly used name, the official name nor the name used by most of those organisations cited above, then we have an overwhelming precedent for not sticking rigidly to a particular interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME. Sarah777 (talk) 22:17, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Sarah777, and good to discuss, but I just don't see the relevance of the Ireland Naming Dispute to this small town's case; the basic "common name" rules still apply generally ("overwhelming precendent" seems a bit strong, I'd call it rather "unhappy compromise debated to death for 15+ years") - Ireland is a very special case, due to the island (millions of years old) vs country (newer but probably the more searched term) issue, and I'd rather say that it's the exception that proves the rule. I really think Bagenalstown is more aligned to Navan, Kells and Dingle, and I think the situation with those three is very clear. I ask again, does anyone have a good argument for Muine Bheag? And now back to the rating slush pile, N-Z complete, on to M. SeoR (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME is not "happily ignored when it suits". However, it does need to be taken in conjunction with the other conventions governing article titles. The reason why the RoI's article isn't just called "Ireland" is because "Ireland" in itself is an ambiguous term. Per WP:NATURAL, we resolve the ambiguity by using a common alternative name. Zacwill (talk) 01:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It absolutely is ignored when it suits the majority. Anyway, I'm probably not supposed to be even discussing this under some 15-year-old suppression edict awarded on foot of some WP:GIBBERISH. So I'm out of here. Sarah777 (talk) 11:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose.Xx78900 (talk) 20:05, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per arguments by SeoR and Smirkybec. Spleodrach (talk) 13:21, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have been involved in similar discussions over place names such as Aberdyfi (also known by the anglicised Aberdovey) and Bala Lake (also known by its Welsh language name Llyn Tegid) in Wales and have used the Muine Bheag article as a model, as an example of a similar issue within the English-speaking world, when editing those articles. I have also been involved in a discussion over the common name for Basel in Switzerland, which I have also used as a model, but in that case it is more about what the city is "also known as" (in this case the more common name in British English (arguably "Basle")) rather than the city's common name in the general English-speaking world which has already been established as "Basel".

Since I first contributed to those discussions, I have learned the words endonym and exonym, which I have so far not seen used in this discussion, with an endonym being the more common name used by the inhabitants of a place and an exonym being a name used by outsiders in case this is helpful to this discussion. Since then, it has occoured to me that the most common endonym for Muine Bheag/Bagenalstown could be different to the most common exonym but as I am not an expert in the local area I would like to ask if any better informed readers could shed some light on this. I would also like to point out another guideline on Wikipedia over places known by more than one name (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names) in case it is useful. In that guideline, there is the suggestion to try to reach a compromise but, again, as I am not an expert on the local area I am not sure what compromise there is to be had over Muine Bheag/Bagenalstown although the sources already cited appear to be in favour of "Bagenalstown" as the most common name in English.

In case anyone is still curious about name disputes around the world, I learned the terms "endonym" and "exonym" in the video Turkey CHANGES its Official Name by Geofocus on You Tube (apologies for the low source volume) which discusses countries which changed their official names in recent years. For older examples, there is Ivory Coast (with its government officially preferring the French "Côte d'Ivoire" to be used in every language since 1986) and Myanmar (officially changed from Burma in 1989 although its new name has not been recognised by the British or American governments (at least before the early 2010s democratic reforms) but official usage has not stopped the former names being commonly used in English (at least by older generations). Tk420 (talk) 11:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)-edited[reply]

I have since thought of a possible compromise. If this article is moved to Bagenalstown the article about the railway station could remain titled Muine Bheag railway station to reflect usage by Iarnród Éireann including passengers' exposure to the Irish-only nameboards (although I have never visited the town, I know of the station nameboards after seeing them featured in an episode of Great British Railway Journeys, which also covers Ireland, (I think it was series 4 episode 23 (Kilkenny to Athy) about 10 minutes into the feature in which the naming issue is discussed with a local historian shortly after arrival) but this might have to be discussed separately in Talk:Muine Bheag railway station. I based this suggestion on the current de-facto compromise on Wikipedia over Aberdyfi/Aberdovey in Wales in which the Welsh Aberdyfi is generally used for the village and community and the anglicised Aberdovey is used for the the railway and lifeboat stations reflecting usage by the railway companies, including on the bilingual nameboards, and the RNLI. Tk420 (talk) 19:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)-edited[reply]
Muine Bheag Railway Station
As of 2015, the signs in this train station follow the convention of all other Irish train station - English in bold with the Irish name in italics above. So, while it is officially known as Muine Bheag by CIE/Irish Rail, the signage shows both. Smirkybec (talk) 10:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As a side note, on their website, Irish Rail actually refer to this station as Muine Bheag (Bagenalstown) which goes some way to acknowledging the common name of the town. Smirkybec (talk) 21:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Before I read your second reply above, I used the search term "Bagenalstown railway station" in a Google image search to try to find a clear photo of the current nameboards at the station and I found an image of a set of stamps on thejournal.ie with "Bagenalstown" used in the bilingual caption which could be a sign that An Post also recognises that it is commonly known as Bagenalstown. I have included the link in case it is useful. Tk420 (talk) 20:11, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have since checked An Post's article on the local post office and I found that although the headline reads "Muinebheag" the address is given as "Bagenalstown Post Office" which could be a sign that An Post officially uses Muine Bheag as the name of the town but recognises that it is commonly known as Bagenalstown. However, on the Eircode website I found the name of the town given as Muine Bheag when I searched for the post office by its Eircode although it gave the name of the business as "Bagenalstown Post Office" which is most likely how the post office is registered. The name of the town is also given as Muine Bheag, most likely reflecting the government's official usage, when I searched for the railway station by its Eircode but the map showing the location gave the name as Muine Bheag (Bagenalstown) like on Iarnród Éirann's website. Tk420 (talk) 21:14, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The last few weeks, the national newspapers were full of "Muine Bheag" (due to the Michael Collins Memorial). Never seen the English name in those articles. The Banner talk 13:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any examples? I've never heard of a connection between this town and Michael Collins? When I did a news search for Muine Bheag and sorted by date, nothing of that sort is coming up. Smirkybec (talk) 13:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I mixed up names and scratched my comment. The Banner talk 16:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner: are you thinking of Béal na Bláth? Collins doesn't have any connection with County Carlow, as far as I can tell. Smirkybec (talk) 16:00, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I mixed up names and scratched my comment. The Banner talk 16:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly confused, The Banner. Can you give us some links to newspaper reports of a Michael Collins Memorial in Muine Bheag? Google isn't returning any results. Scolaire (talk) 16:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I mixed up names and scratched my comment. The Banner talk 16:23, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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