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The technical section of the village pump is used to discuss technical issues about Wikipedia. Bug reports and feature requests should be made in Phabricator (see how to report a bug). Bugs with security implications should be reported differently (see how to report security bugs).

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Dark mode when logged out of Wikipedia

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When logged out, in dark mode, at {{Soulfly}}, the actual link for Soulfly is an extremely dark grey that is difficult to see on a black background. It was not this way before. Does anyone know how to fix this? --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See the notes and linked pages from when you recently asked about this: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_214#Dark_Mode_Text. — xaosflux Talk 15:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I assume that we will have to wait our turn.
The issue is fixed when I am actually LOGGED IN, but not fixed when I am logged OUT. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I made this edit yesterday to improve display of self links in navboxes. I will try to fix this fully today since this specific navbox keeps coming up. Izno (talk) 16:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This should be fixed for this template. Izno (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Enhanced editnotice loader

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I worked on a module that would serve as an enhanced editnotice loader for Wikipedia. See testwiki:Module:Editnotice_load and Module:Editnotice load (which is an exact copy). Features include category editnotices, better group notices, and editnotices by page ID (which would reduce the need to move pages around).

I want to get further feedback on this loader before it inevitably gets implemented. Please check out the testwiki. It should be backwards compatible with the way we do things, but I would like checks for this first.

If this is to be implemented, there will need to be a couple of changes made, including to:

This would make the editnotice loader much more robust.

Immediately, in preparation for this, I would consider adding the following category editnotices templates:

{{BLP editintro}}

{{Disambig editintro}}

Anything else? Awesome Aasim 19:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some documentation on how it works from a user's perspective would be helpful, in order to understand the context and how it would be used in practice, including how security restrictions are enforced. On a side note, I'm not sure that its deployment is "inevitable". isaacl (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have some testcases on testwiki. For best results, view when logged out and inspect the HTML when logged in.
testwiki:Taylor Swift should be a good example of me getting category editnotices working. testwiki:Protected title and testwiki:Protected title2 show the protection editnotice on both the create screen and on the "does not exist" screen when a title is protected from creation for other reasons.
testwiki:Special:EditPage/A should show the page notice from testwiki:Template:Editnotices/PageID/54370 (which is for A). You can also see I renamed previous "page notice"s to "title notice"s because the way page notices are bound to currently are actually to titles, not pages. The new "page notice" will remain bound to a specific page because it uses PageID. There will be no need to update the title notices for pages that exist. On the other hand, for pages that don't exist, the title notice will need to be kept up to date. Awesome Aasim 04:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't tell from the article page how to use the feature: where the edit notice lives, how will access be limited, and so forth. Thus it's hard to evaluate the feature without knowing the maintenance cost. isaacl (talk) 09:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The editnotices live in the same pseudo-space: Template:Editnotices/. See testwiki:Module:Editnotice load/config.
I also moved the editnotice links to a collapsible box because the number of creatable editnotices has gotten relatively high after adding category notices. Awesome Aasim 13:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I see there's now a link above the edit notice point to its location, so category-based notices are grouped under a "Category" subpage. What are the enhancements for the group-based notices? isaacl (talk) 18:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is less ambiguity in how they are handled. For example, on testwiki:Template:A/B/C/D/E, there are five different group editnotices that can be created. So if there is a page where it is desirable that the group Template:A/B needs one group notice, and Template:A/B/C needs another group notice, and Template:A/B/D needs another group notice, that can now be done; there will be one common group notice and two separate group notices for subpages. Awesome Aasim 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest to phase the rollout into stages, and creating a test plan to ensure nothing regressed. Editing this many interface pages and fully protected templates at once sounds like too much work for an admin to volunteer to. For instance, the specific category editnotices you mention can be left for later as we already have a decent system to handle those categories.
Immediately, in preparation for this, I would consider adding the following category editnotices templates this cannot be done immediately as they also need to be removed from Module:Mainspace editnotice, else they would show up twice when the rest of the changes are deployed. – SD0001 (talk) 08:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think this might be something that is better done all in one go. Removing the two category editnotices from Module:Mainspace editnotice should be kind of a no-brainer after the rollout. The way that the module currently does these checks, checking the unparsed wikitext, currently sucks.
Do you have an idea for a Scribunto test runner for Module:Editnotice load to ensure that everything works with demo editnotices? Awesome Aasim 16:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a bot to populate a category based on the same category in another wiki?

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I've just created Category:Polish archivists, which is well developed at pl:Kategoria:Polscy archiwiści. I am sure some entries from the pl category have entries here on en already. Do we have a both that could populate our category based on what is on pl? Doing this kind of stuff manually is a chore I no longer enjoy, I am afraid. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus I think this could be straightforward for a bot to accomplish when both categories are single level, i.e only articles, but not when there are child categogies. If there are subcategories, then it's not trivial and a bot could be disruptive. Imagine if we could add Category:Archivists from Poland (Q7604592) to an article subject, and it would populate specific language editions under certain conditions. I am holding out for wikidata improvements to address this. Ironically this convo will get archived by a bot later ;) ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Shushugah Fair point, I understand how subcategories could be messy. For now, however, a simple category copy of articles without dealing with subcategories would be much appreciated. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mobile view center-aligns table header cells where they are left-aligned in desktop view

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I'm unsure if this issue is known: I've reported it on Template_talk:Infobox_nutritional_value#Centre-aligned_labels_on_mobile_view_appear_haphazard and wondered if there should be a more general solution. Or is the different alignment intentional? Thanks, cmɢʟeeτaʟκ 14:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most (if not all) browsers will centre-align table header cells by default: if left-alignment is desired, it needs to be explicitly stated. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Redrose64: What baffles me is why Desktop view left-aligns them in Template:Infobox_nutritional_value but Mobile view centre-aligns them. Any clue? cmɢʟeeτaʟκ 23:54, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I left a comment on the template talk page earlier about that. Izno (talk) 00:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For desktop view, MediaWiki:Common.css has this rule:
.infobox-label,
.infobox-data,
/* Remove element selector when every .infobox thing is using the standard module/templates  */
.infobox th,
.infobox td {
	/* @noflip */
	text-align: left;
}
The table header cells concerned match the first and third selectors here, so the declaration is applied to these cells. I don't think that Common.css is loaded in mobile view, so this rule is not applied. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for explaining, @Izno: and @Redrose64: I'll leave it as is and await a solution then. Cheers, cmɢʟeeτaʟκ 19:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Making this script a gadget on enwiki

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I worked on this script years ago and it seems as if it has reached a mostly stable state. The script removes the "action=edit" from redlinks which essentially prevents the editor from auto-loading when clicking on non-existent pages that one has permission to create. I think this should be available as a gadget to allow for more configuration. Something like: Do not immediately enter editing mode when clicking on a red link.

Thoughts? Awesome Aasim 15:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's hard to see why anyone would want it, even setting aside the fact it goes through every link on the page every tenth of a second. Nardog (talk) 12:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if the numbers at Wikipedia:User scripts/List are current, but if so it doesn't look like it has been picked up by many so far, so I don't expect many would opt-in. In general, we want people following a redlink to start a page. — xaosflux Talk 13:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I am aware. This is so that it picks up links in VE previews, etc. Awesome Aasim 14:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Awesome Aasim I haven't done much scripting around VE, but it seems like there should be a way to add an event listener to things like the VE preview window and only have it run when the content changes. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE
)
14:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... I am not sure... maybe someone more experienced with scripts knows... Awesome Aasim 05:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You wouldn't even need that; you can just attach an onclick listener to "a.new" elements and modify the href to remove &action=edit as they're being clicked, even if they've been dynamically added after page load. Writ Keeper  06:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh! Let me try this. One second. Awesome Aasim 06:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I change my mind. Doing this would cause stuff like "open link in new tab" to not function correctly. I do hope there is something smarter. Awesome Aasim 06:15, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it works with new tabs just as well as anything else:
$("#mw-content-text").on("click","a.new", function(event){
  $(this).attr("href", $(this).attr("href").replace("&action=edit", ""));
})
The URL modification happens before the click, so if you CTRL+click or whatever to open a new tab, it gets the modified URL. Writ Keeper  06:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about links that are not in mw-content-text? For example, tabs and navbars? Awesome Aasim 06:24, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you would have redlinks outside of mw-content-text, but if that were a concern, you'd just choose a node higher up than #mw-content-text. Writ Keeper  06:25, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a subject page has no talk page, the talk page tab appears as a redlink; similarly, if a talk page has no subject page, the subject page tab appears as a redlink. These tabs are outside mw-content-text. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am taking a look at the requirements at WP:GADGET and it seems to meet all of them:

  1. Gadgets must work if just included with no further configuration.: This script requires no configuration at all.
  2. Gadgets must be compatible with all major browsers, i.e., they must not terminate with errors.: Just checked. Works in both Chromium and Firefox based browsers.
  3. Gadgets should be functional in most major browsers (cross-browser compatibility). Exceptions must be clearly stated.: It is. The script works on most not all browsers. It uses the URL library which is supported by practically everyone.
  4. Duplication of gadgets should only be made if it is reasonable.: This does not apply.
  5. Collections of scripts should be split if they have disparate functions.: This does not apply.
  6. Gadgets requiring permissions must be marked and must fail gracefully if the permissions aren't present.: This requires no permissions at all as it only affects the behavior of red links.
  7. Gadgets only working in some skins must be marked as such if that data is available.: Irrelevant as it works on all skins, not just Vector and Timeless.

I don't see any requirement that the script needs to see widespread usage. I am not seeking to have this turned on by default at all. Those that want it can enable it in preferences. Awesome Aasim 18:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consider this: either it's bug reports before you turn it on or it's bug reports after. Are you planning to fix them at all? Then we just have an unmaintained gadget instead. Izno (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The last verified bug report I received was about interwiki links being broken by my script. That was fixed thanks to work by Matma Rex which I then implemented right after. The one after that complains that "action=delete" links are being removed, which does not sound right because this only touches red links. Not enough information was given for me to figure out where this was happening.
There definitely is some room for optimizations, especially since having three instructions on one line is... not ideal. But those are formatting and style fixes, not functionality fixes. Awesome Aasim 19:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

¬

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The latest run of Special:WantedCategories features another cluster of template-autogenerated nonsense, resulting from something that was done around {{WikiProject U.S. Roads}} within the past couple of days, rating articles for the importance level of "¬". Obviously that's not a real thing we actually expect to have, and this results from a coding or spelling error somewhere, but as that template imports things from an outside module I can't find the error to fix it as it isn't in the primary template itself. So could somebody look into making the following redlinked nonsense categories go away?

Thanks muchly. Bearcat (talk) 18:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bearcat: At the moment, this isn't a VPT matter, because a group of people are presently working on WikiProject banners as a group. For instance, MSGJ (talk · contribs) has edited Template:WikiProject U.S. Roads only yesterday. You could send this somewhere like Module talk:WikiProject banner, perhaps. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That should be fixed now — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Word count template for sections, similar to Template:Section sizes

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Do we have anything that shows word count in an article by section, similar to how Template:Section sizes shows size by byte for each section? If not, wouldn't this be helpful? Bogazicili (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Building a simple body index calculator

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Having a discussion at this talk page to build a calculator using waist circumference and height as an index for body "roundness", which is based on eccentricity and used for anthropometric assessment in health research, first reported here.

A draft exists. Adjustments are needed to provide both metric and imperial inputs, and two decimal points, and any gadget assuring simplicity for public use. The completed calculator will be presented in the article. A commercial example is on this site.

Would be grateful for ideas and solutions. Thanks. Zefr (talk) 20:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bold solution: a zero input interface, no waist, no height to input, yet still provide the desired BRI: a table with waist left to right, height top to bottom, BRI in cells.

waist 1 waist 2 waist ...
height 1 bri w1/h1 bri w2/h1 ...
height 2 bri w1/h2 bri w2/h2 ...
... ... ... ...

Uwappa (talk) 20:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uwappa - thanks, although it isn't clear why 2 entries for waist and height are used, and the eccentricity factor is missing. Could you input data and show the result here? Also needed is the side-by-side display of metric and imperial results in 2 decimal places. See an example here (uses Wikipedia login to the medical wiki). Zefr (talk) 01:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The table was based on your "using waist circumference and height as an index for body "roundness", with waist and height being the two inputs and roundess the output.
You will have far more than 2 entries for both waist and height, hence the three dots.
The MDwiki asks for weight and height, not waist and height. Never mind, the idea is still the same: no input, do all computing in advance. No threshold, no effort required from readers. I've used your link to create the numbers for the example below, which will hopefully suffice to give you an idea for a similar table with waist and height as input.
An additional idea: take it one step further and answer the question that will be in the readers mind: Am I healthy?
Colour code the background, from green for healthy, via yellow to red for dangerous. A reader could look at the row close to own height and see multiple questions answered:
  • Is my weight/waist in green, yellow or red?
  • If yellow or red, what is the green value I should aim for?
Colour codes below are not based on real data, just an example.
80 kg 90 kg ... kg
180 cm 24.7 kg/m2 27.8 kg/m2 ...
175 cm 26.1 kg/m2 29.4 kg/m2 ...
... cm ... ... ...
An even bolder proposal that will probably rock your boat, but anyway, based on your metric/imperial question: Keep the calculator for the medics and target the general audience while on Wikipedia. Boldly omit the numbers in the cells and show both metrics and imperial in row and column headers. The table will still answer the question in the readers mind: what waist/weight is healthy for me, given my height?
80 kg 90 kg ... kg
175 lbs 200 lbs ... lbs
180 cm 6 feet
175 cm ... feet
... cm ... feet
That might even allow to use both weight AND waist in the column headers and answer two questions: given my height, what weight and waist is healthy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uwappa (talkcontribs) 06:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am reinventing the wheel. Please look at . You could do all the computations behind it and create a similar chart for BRI. Uwappa (talk) 07:24, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This conversation, if it is not over, should probably move to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine. It does not appear to be a technical issue. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to make that photo vector, but Ive gotten bored, maybe ill finish when I get around to it Anthony2106 (talk) 13:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've created one:
Graphs of BRI (coloured numbers) vs height h vs waist circumference c
cmɢʟeeτaʟκ 17:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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On Wikivoyage, that article is just mediocre quality. There should be no start there. I am not sure how to remove it and what caused the error (could it happen for other articles?). Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 04:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was added to Wikidata in this revision. Not sure why as looking through the history of wikivoyage:Kaesong it was never star quality.  novov talk edits 05:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hanyangprofessor2: The star is because of the "badge" (a little rosette) at d:Q109079#sitelinks-wikivoyage. As noted above, this was set by Dexbot (talk · contribs) almost ten years ago; you would need to ask its botop (Ladsgroup) what the mechanism is that triggered this amendment. If it really is wrong, these "badges" appear to be user-editable. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:15, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They aren’t; saving the changes to them is limited to certain user groups.  novov talk edits 22:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ikan Kekek FYI, and maybe you know who to ping. Or report this to WV Traveller's Pub, I am not sure how serious this issue is, but I think the star should not be there for 'usuable' articles. Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 07:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the problem. It's starred on Wikidata? Best to discuss that there, I guess. I don't normally edit Wikidata. You could bring this up in the voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:35, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hanyangprofessor2 The bot added the badge ten years ago because at least back then this revision to be exact had voy:Template:Usablecity. Note that the badge was added for "recommended article" [1] hence the silver (not gold). There are many badges. You should be able to see the list of page that have badges in voy:Special:PagesWithBadges Ladsgroupoverleg 10:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the current version of voy:Kaesong#Go next still has {{usablecity}}. This is therefore a matter for WikiVoyage, and not our problem at all. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ikan Kekek @Redrose64 The issue is that usable article on Wikivoyage are just middle-level artices (see voy:Wikivoyage:Article status). A star should denote an equivalent of a Featured article - on Wikivoyage that would be a Star-class article. A Good Article equivalent there would be a Guide (which even uses the GA green cross). Having Featured Article-lookalike barnstars for Wikivoyage usable articles, which are equivalent to our B- or C- class articles, makes no sense and is arguably actively misleading. Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 03:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS. And it is a problem for us (not for Wikivoyage), because it is us (English Wikipedia) that has misleading indicators suggesting that our sister project article is high quality, when it is not. Wikivoyage has correctly identified the article as a middle-level (usuable) article, but we are incorrectly starring them as high-level articles. Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 03:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PPS. Compare to Hiroshima, which is a star-level article on Wikivoyage, and is correctly tagged with that project's yellow star in our article. Why are we tagging Wikivoyage usable articles at all, and why are we using Featured Article symbol instead of the Wikivoyage blue circle (which is the symbol for their usable articles)? At minimum, the symbol for usable content should be fixed (from FA star to blue circle), and I'd strongly suggest removing any symbols for that class (which is below GA-level equivalent). I hope the issue is now clearer? Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here 03:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hanyangprofessor2: The stars, discs etc. (of whatever colour) are added by mw:Extension:WikimediaBadges based on settings in WikiData. If the extension is faulty, file a ticket at phab:. If WikiData has the wrong settings, fix them, or find out at WikiData why their bots are using imperfect algorithms. Whatever the problem is, it's still not our fault. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Turning on the Calculator gadget as default

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As a continuation of this discussion Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_215#New_gadget_for_doing_user_entered_calculations, I would like to see this gadget turned on by default for pages in the Category:Pages using gadget Calculator. Any concerns? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See this in action on an article using this special url: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_roundness_index?withgadget=calculatorxaosflux Talk 20:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some feedback:
  • As currently written this won't work in the official Wikipedia mobile apps or for anyone with JavaScript disabled or an older browser. This needs better fallback behaviour in my opinion before being enabled. [1] FWIW viewing it without the gadget I thought the page was broken and went to edit it.
  • It seems to print NaN if I enter a waist figure but no height - this seems like a basic error that should be fixed.
  • Switching between metric and imperial loses the form values - this doesn't seem like a very good user experience.
  • Perhaps there should be a clearer way to report bugs and some more context explaining it - that might be a case of simply adding a caption.
Hope this is helpful.
[1] Note that anything that uses a template gadget will not work for anyone consuming our content outside English Wikipedia so that's something to bear in mind e.g. Wikiwand, apps, Google etc.. . At minimum I think this should provide some error message saying "This interactive element is not supported by your device." 🐸 Jdlrobson (talk) 00:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent points Jdlrobson. Will work on building some of these. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of that is already supported by the gadget, but needed some small changes to the specific wikipage template to work. [2]. Bawolff (talk) 03:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jdlrobson does this address your concerns? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that on Firefox (version 130, x64 Linux) the width of the number inputs doesn't seem to account for the stepper arrows, causing e.g. a three-digit height (metric) on Body roundness index to be cut off on all desktop skins except Timeless. Rummskartoffel 09:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Will take a look when I have a machine I can run Firefox on... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that it differs between skins suggests to me it might be related to which font is used. Bawolff (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After looking more carefully, it seems like the difference is that timeless uses 15px font vs vector using 13.3px font. This adjusts the size of the input box to be different, but on firefox it appears that the number selector is a more constant size regardless of font (vs chrome where the selector only appears on hover). Bawolff (talk) 03:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weird change to mobile

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For some reason, all clickable links that used to be gray have now become blue like normal links. This includes section links and the thank button, among other things. It also makes short descriptions blue when using the search feature. They are all still the correct color on the desktop version. Is this intentional, and if not, can it please be fixed? Thanks, QuicoleJR (talk) 20:46, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It also affects the notification when redirected to a different page, which is now hard to read because it is blue (or purple after clicked) on a black background. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jon (WMF). Izno (talk) 21:11, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Mach61 23:56, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Confirming this new Thursday styling negatively affects UX legibility. Folly Mox (talk) 00:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We're aware of a few issues which seem to cover the situations you describe above:
Let me know if there are any issues not covered by the bugs above. If so, please be specific and at minimum include URLs and description of area, and steps you followed. If you can please provide a screenshot (you can use phabricator upload if needed).
We are looking to get these fixed next week. Jon (WMF) (talk) 00:35, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two separate notices when editing an old revision of an article?

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Two notices about editing an old revision on the English Wikipedia on September 26, 2024
Screenshot of editing old headers from 2020

Have we always had two separate notices when editing an old revision of an article? If so, why? If not, what was changed and when? ElKevbo (talk) 23:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See other pic. — xaosflux Talk 00:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first box shows MediaWiki:Revision-info which is also shown when the revision is viewed. We have customized it. The MediaWiki default at MediaWiki:Revision-info/qqx is much shorter. The second box shows MediaWiki:Editingold. The MediaWiki default MediaWiki:Editingold/qqx is a little shorter. The defaults have no overlap in content. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:32, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quick and helpful replies! I must have seen these so many times that they don't even register with me anymore.
The two notices do seem to be duplicative but this is not a hill I'm going to die on. Cheers! ElKevbo (talk) 14:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DMCA template for templates?

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There is a maintenance category Category:Wikipedia articles with colour accessibility problems containing articles that have the templates {{overcolored}} or {{overcoloured}}. The maintenance category appears to have been created by including the {{DMCA}} template in the definition of {{overcoloured}}.

However, multiple templates also have this template, for example, {{Transport in Mexico City}}. The maintenance category does not seem to include templates. (Note: I recently added the {{overcoloured}} template to that template, but have since visited Special:Purge to purge both {{Transport in Mexico City}} and Category:Wikipedia articles with colour accessibility problems. Despite this purge, {{Transport in Mexico City}} does not appear on Category:Wikipedia articles with colour accessibility problems. So it seems that {{DMCA}} is specific to articles. There also does not seem to be an existing {{DMCT}} template to allow {{overcoloured}} to create Category:Wikipedia templates with colour accessibility problems.

Is this a Phabricator feature request that I need to file? Or is there somewhere else I need to request this?

Credit to Remsense for suggesting creating the Wikipedia templates with colour accessibility problems category.

Thisisnotatest (talk) 08:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've raised a similar situation at Template:Unreferenced. This is because the templates use Template:Ambox. Creating an exact duplicate template just so other namespaces can be categorized is a horrible idea. Instead, the system behind categorization at the base level should be changed. The template shouldn't care which namespace it is placed on for categorization. Gonnym (talk) 09:53, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some categories are intended for articles only, thus {{Dated maintenance category (articles)}} (abbreviated {{DMCA}}). A category named Category:Wikipedia articles with colour accessibility problems is probably of this type. A category that can contain any kind of page would probably begin with "Wikipedia pages" instead (e.g. Category:Wikipedia pages with colour accessibility problems).
There are a few variations for other cases, such as {{Dated maintenance category (files, articles, categories, and templates)}}, as well as {{Dated maintenance category}} ({{DMC}}) that doesn't do any namespace checks. The last can be used along with templates like {{Main other}}, {{Namespace detect}}, and similar templates if you need something more complex, for example if you really want Category:Wikipedia templates with colour accessibility problems, Category:Wikipedia categories with colour accessibility problems, and so on. Anomie 11:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Anomie: Aha! So the capability already exists! So what I need to do is update the talk page of {{overcoloured}} to suggest replacing the use of {{DMCA}} with {{DMC}} or {{DMCFACT}} since I believe we would want to track all or most overcolored situations, not just those occurring on articles, and attempt to get consensus on that change to the template. Thank you! Considering this matter solved. Thisisnotatest (talk) 20:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
when I saw DMCA... I was thinking what has led to people filing DMCA requests on Templates here. – robertsky (talk) 14:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thisisnotatest: If something is wrongly categorised, and there is a possibility that the cat is due to the effects of a template, a purge won't help because it doesn't update the link tables. A WP:NULLEDIT is the thing to try. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]
Apologies for cross-posting in English. Please consider translating this message.

Hello everyone, a small change will soon be coming to the user-interface of your Wikimedia project. The Wikidata item sitelink currently found under the General section of the Tools sidebar menu will move into the In Other Projects section.

We would like the Wiki communities feedback so please let us know or ask questions on the Discussion page before we enable the change which can take place October 4 2024, circa 15:00 UTC+2. More information can be found on the project page.

We welcome your feedback and questions.
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:57, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Danny Benjafield, in the future, try to avoid color, or use one of the Codex tokens directly (with a fallback). Thanks! Izno (talk) 19:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Village pump permalinks?

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Is there a way to provide a permalink to Village pump topics which will survive the topic being archived? Thisisnotatest (talk) 00:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Permalinks always survive archiving, as they are links to a specific revision, for example this this is the permalink to the revision prior to my response. — xaosflux Talk 00:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This question actually calls out one of the problems with organization of talk pages and any other kind of page that effectively tries to track multiple topics on a single page, particularly when they are used for the purpose of "cases" which have their own individual "lives". When you get a permalink, that lets you view the state of the page at some point in time. So if you get a permalink for such a page at some instant in time, you can see the case of interest at that point in time. You can link forward to the following version of that page, but there may have been no change to the case you're interested in. You might need to go through large numbers of versions for which the case you're interested in hasn't change. To find it just before it got migrated to an archive could have involved hundreds of versions. Of course, you can check the archive, but there could have been versions where content which was added but subsequently deleted, so you wind up having to look at numerous versions that did not affect the topic you're interested in. This is just an inherent limitation of the way that talk pages are managed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabrickator (talkcontribs) 00:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)<diff>[reply]
Confirmed. I'm looking for a link which will always link to the current state of the topic without regard to whether the topic has been archived or had subsequent updates. Thisisnotatest (talk) 02:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thisisnotatest: It is presently in place, but relies on several factors. First, people must always make links to the thread using normal Wikilinks (i.e. [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Village pump permalinks?]]) and not external links (i.e. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Village_pump_permalinks%3F]), regardless of the page where those links are made. Second, the VP page must be set up for archiving by ClueBot III (talk · contribs) (this is the case for WP:VPM and WP:VPW but not for VPI, VPP, VPR or VPT which all use lowercase sigmabot III). Third, other forms of archiving (whether manual, script or bot) must not be used on the VP page. If all of these are observed, ClueBot III will fix inward links to threads as and when they are archived, see for example these edits. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Redrose64: Thank you! Thisisnotatest (talk) 23:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you click on the timestamp for any comment, such as the first comment in a section, a link to that comment will be copied to the clipboard. When in future this section is archived, then when the link is followed, MediaWiki will display a popup message, with a link to the new location of the comment in the archive. See mw:Help:DiscussionTools § Talk pages permalinking for more details. (If you would like the link in wikitext format rather than an URL, you can try my user script to copy comment links to the clipboard to save you the work of adjusting the URL.) isaacl (talk) 05:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Isaacl: Thank you, that's perfect, especially as I would ususally be linking to my first comment. Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind, those such links are much more fragile than actual permalinks. — xaosflux Talk 09:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a tradeoff. A link to an actual page version won't get affected by subsequent edits, while the new talk page comment permalink feature relies on the content not being deleted without being moved, and the relevant signatures not being modified, to gain the benefit of linking to a specific comment with later responses also being shown. isaacl (talk) 17:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Preview problem

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Monobook, Edge, Win11. Navigation popups gadget. When I point my mouse at Jon Anderson, instead of the expected preview I see }}. DuncanHill (talk) 01:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW it seems to be related to when the infobox is complicated with a module loading another box in the first infobox. Probably just beyond popups' ability to render that deep. — xaosflux Talk 10:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With window.popupPreviewFirstParOnly = false; in the browser console I see }} and below it the opening paragraph. Popups apparently misreads the complicated infobox as an opening paragraph only containing }}. {{ and }} are correctly balanced in the article. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Page previews tool displays the preview correctly. You may consider using that. – Ammarpad (talk) 06:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit filter when Wikipedia is cited

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Do we have an edit filter that warns people who enter Wikipedia as a citation? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, see 1057 (hist · log). -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

categories

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What happened to the categories at the bottom of articles on the mobile version of the site? You finally added them, then they disappeared for a while, then they came back, then they disappeared for good and that was years ago. Please bring them back and keep them there, there is no reason to not have them there and it is extremely inconvenient 2603:7080:8140:8A60:14E:FF29:2359:5592 (talk) 12:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Categories are not displayed in the mobile version. Mobile users can click "Desktop" at the bottom of a page to see the desktop version with categories. Registered users can enable Advanced mode which includes a "Categories" button. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added that to Help:Categories in 2021 [3] but it appears the categories are now displayed all the time in advanced mode. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cite This Page boilerplate

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How can Special:CiteThisPage be updated? Is a Phabricator ticket required? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrators can edit MediaWiki:Citethispage-content. You can make edit requests on the talk page. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NewUsers now blue-linking everyone’s contribs pages

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iOS Safari browser: NewUsers seems to have recently had a change so that all users’ contribs pages are blue-linked, whether they’ve made an edit or not. I foresee this increasing UAA reports that get a Wait until the user edits. response. Is there a way to get around this? MM (Give me info.) (Victories) 14:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you be more specific about the page you are referring to? the user creation log doesn't seem to be doing this in a couple of different views I tried. — xaosflux Talk 15:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, for example.

16:22, 28 September 2024 User account Karen8907 talk contribs was created

’contribs’ used to be red, if the user had made no edits. Now they are all blue, whether there’s an edit or not. Does that make more sense?
I have ‘advanced mode’ on. Is that likely to be anything to do with it? MM (Give me info.) (Victories) 15:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When logged out, at mobile view, I only see blue contribs links; at desktop view most are red. So "advanced mode" (whatever this is) is not a factor. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the user has no edits then the contribs link has the class mw-usertoollinks-contribs-no-edits in both desktop (tested in Vector legacy) and mobile, but only desktop has this CSS:
.mw-usertoollinks-contribs-no-edits {
  color: #ba0000;
}
You can add the following to your CSS to get red links in all skins assuming they add the class:
.mw-usertoollinks-contribs-no-edits {
  color: #ba0000 !important;
}
PrimeHunter (talk) 16:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Code’s done the trick. BigThank, Prime. MM (Give me info.) (Victories) 16:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WMF recently changed link colors on Minerva and I suspect this is another casualty (or was a delta that always existed and shouldn't have). @Jon (WMF) Izno (talk) 16:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a heads up, my skin is Vector (2022), not MinervaNeue. MM (Give me info.) (Victories) 16:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You linked the mobile site above and claimed to be on iOS. You cannot today select a skin for mobile website: you are always on Minerva. Izno (talk) 17:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was xaosflux who linked mobile but MM is probably there. "Advanced mode" is a feature of the mobile version at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileOptions. Mobile devices usually pick the mobile version by default regardless of your skin. You can switch at "Desktop" or "Mobile view" at the bottom of pages. If it says "Desktop" then you are currently on mobile, also called Minerva. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, they really need to fix all those new link bugs. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And indeed, the CSS that should be activating is

.mw-usertoollinks-contribs-no-edits {
  color: var(--color-destructive,#d73333);
}

And which is instead being overridden by

a:not([role="button"]):not(.minerva__tab-text) {
  color: var(--color-progressive,#36c);
  border-radius: 2px;
  text-decoration: none;
}

likely due to specificity, since :not() adds to the specificity. Izno (talk) 17:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talk pages and me not getting along

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If I open a new topic on a talk (such as I have just done here) the software won't let me abandon it. It wants me to finish it. Like, suppose right now I decided "enh this isn't right venue" and left the page discarding my work (or wishing to). Well if I come back to this page tomorrow, it won't let me start a new thread, or edit an existing thread, or even read the page. Nope. It's like "You started a thread yesterday. I'll take you there now! FINISH IT AND POST IT chum and then we can talk about what I'll allow you do to next."

Mind you this is after I have clicked the "OK" on "Leave this page? Your work will be lost" box (that is generated by Firefox not Wikipedia). There it is again when I come back. I can erase the text, but can't entirely erase the title ("You can't have a blank title!") nor delete the thread. I suppose if I were to drop dead it would start harassing my estate to finish the post, I don't know.

This is no good. Can this be fixed? Is there a workaround? Fixing would better as that'd mean future editors would not have to climb the draperies. Thanks. Herostratus (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Click on cancel instead of emptying the contents. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 20:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oof did not see that, and its right there. My bad. Sorry to bother, and thanks for the tip. Herostratus (talk) 20:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Preview box

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The yellow box that says This is only a preview; your changes have not yet been saved! when you preview your edit doesn't seem to be showing up for me. Instead, the message is just shown in plain text under the "Preview" header, which makes it seem like it is part of the actual text. Was this an intentional change? The box appears normally when signed out. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Works for me What is your skin and browser? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vector 2010 on Chrome. But I get the same result when I try switching to Vector 2022 and Firefox. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Earwigs copyvio tool is down

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What it says on the tin. The Earwig is aware of this. Whenever anyone tries to use the tool, they get this message most of the time: An error occurred while using the search engine (Google Error: HTTP Error 429: Too Many Requests). Note: there is a daily limit on the number of search queries the tool is allowed to make. You may repeat the check without using the search engine.

Obviously, there's a bit of tomfoolery around hitting the limit, which is apparently shared by all users of Wikipedia. There was some discussion in the WMF section of the pump a few weeks back about what the WMF can do about it. I'm mostly interested in what we can do in the meantime while it gets fixed. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 00:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could do your own search engine search for snippets of text from the article. One sentence from each paragraph should give an indication of problems. And you can tick the box on the tool to limit the check. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the message I get every time I try to use Earwig check tool since early 2024. It's always over the limit. I've asked Earwig about it multiple times and I think the problem is that bots can use it and they are causing it to hit its daily limit pretty early in the day. I wish bots could get booted of so that regular editors would have access to the tool but I have yet to see any change. I don't even try to use it any more. Liz Read! Talk! 22:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does work for me quite often, probably as I am in a different time zone. You may have to await the end of the "day", and try again. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A heading beginning with a wiki comment removes MediaWiki interface "edit" buttons for that section

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Demonstrated at testwiki:Sandbox/Section edit button. Notice 2 out of 6 sections have their "edit source" or "edit" buttons missing deliberately, when a section heading text is prepended with a wiki comment (see the page source). A wiki comment after a heading on the same line works, however.

I had to make an edit Special:Diff/1248413109 here at en.wiki to workaround this MediaWiki behavior, to restore said interface button. The lack of edit interface buttons in sections can be misinterpreted confusingly as a page being protected, particularly as an unregistered user.

Is this intentional MediaWiki behavior? I didn't file or search for a bug at Phabricator, I don't have an account. 84.250.15.152 (talk) 11:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Known bad syntax MOS:SECTIONCOMMENT. Gonnym (talk) 11:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]

I was doing some cleanup on Lockheed Martin shooting and came across an situation that I have never encountered before. The Internet Archive links at least on this article now seem to be failing. When I went to the saved URLs, the content that had been saved in the past came up in passing but then a different link/usurped content? for widgetbox(dot)com came up/took over. Has anyone else come across a similar issue? Is this just The Meridian Star news articles? And hey, for any of the lurkers around here who knows what's what etc, apologies in advance if I've possibly posted this issue in the wrong place, I just couldn't figure out where this might belong. No snark please, I just figured I better ask somewhere around here. - Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 18:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shearonink, are you referring to this? — Qwerfjkltalk 19:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of things happen.
When I click though the link that you posted above I get a result saying the "page doesn't exist..."
BUT when I click on Ref #7/"Three years later" in the Lockheed Martin shooting from the Meridian Star ->>https://web.archive.org/web/20120314014942/http://meridianstar.com/local/x681061768/Lockheed-Martin-Three-years-later?keyword=leadpicturestory I get THIS wacky "widgetserver" result-->>>https://web.archive.org/web/20120327105127/http://cdn.widgetserver.com/
Hope i've explained it...I'm kind of flummoxed by all this. I even tried to do a search for both of the Meridian Star articles at Newspapers.com and also at the paper's website but couldn't get any results. - Shearonink (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a widget that the page included forces a redirect for some reason. Anyway I've changed the reference to use an archive from a different date, that doesn't seem to have that issue. --Chris 08:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Chris G. I had never seen a redirect like that, basically hidden within a webarchive URL. Seems like a usurpation... I'll remove the dead link template. I was vaguely thinking it had something to do with recent news about the Wayback Machine being sued?... - Shearonink (talk) 14:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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"Related changes" seems to be broken. I usually view CAT:RFU using RelatedChanges, like this. I'm only getting the current day's changes. This is new as of today. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 18:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see entries since 22 September. The top right has a box saying "500 changes, 7 days" for me. Do you have such a box, what does it say and can you change it? PrimeHunter (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It appears to have resolved itself. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 14:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Italic title doesn't work on Mickey Maguire (Shameless), DISPLAYTITLE does

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This version of Mickey Maguire (Shameless) uses {{italic title}}, and complains about no matching string. I couldn't find any invisible characters, so I'm out of ideas. Paradoctor (talk) 18:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

{{italic title}} omits italics in parentheses, also when |string= is used. I think it should be changed but that's how it works now. {{Italic disambiguation}} can be used for your purpose without parameters. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, changing the page title to the more general disambiguation of "character" removes the need for italics in the title. Izno (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
D'oh! I just realized that I should've used |all=yes.
Of course, {{italic disambiguation}} is easier, so I'll use that. Thanks. Paradoctor (talk) 20:45, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved

Quarry down?

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Hello, Tech aficianados,

I know that this area technically isn't in Wikipedia's realm of control but I was just wondering if anyone knew why Quarry was down. I can't get any of my regular pages to even load. And, unfortunately, Phab isn't accepting the password I typically use and I don't want to reset it until the end of the day so I can't file a bug report. But I did a search and I can't see that anyone else has filed a ticket either.

The message I get is a logo for Wikimedia Cloud Services and then:

  • Error
  • This web service cannot be reached. Please contact a maintainer of this project.
  • Maintainers can find troubleshooting instructions from our documentation on Wikitech.

I tried to find a discussion page at MediaWiki but was unsuccessful. Any clues? If the cloud services are down, it seems like it would be affecting other aspects of this project but I'm just running into problems with Quarry. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 22:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Taavi: could this be related to the changes from phab:T361471? – 2804:F14:80A0:C01:CAC:C72A:E92:375B (talk) 01:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for supplying this. But it's from months ago so I'm not sure if it is relevant for today's problem. Quarry gets a lot of use though so I'm surprised there isn't an open ticket. But I appreciate you looking for one that is related. Liz Read! Talk! 02:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The changes they did to fix this issue was applied on the 25th of this month, that's why I thought it might be related. At any rate Taavi is the one who made that fix, so he would know for certain - and probably can offer some information about the current problem too. – 2804:F1...92:375B (talk) 03:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I finally got the right password and filed a ticket. No response yet. Liz Read! Talk! 05:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely unrelated. Taavi (talk!) 07:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should be back up and running, not sure yet why it failed, investigating in phab:T375997. DCaro (WMF) (talk) 08:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can't close maps (firefox 130, Windows 10)

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Hi everyone, recently I've been having an issue where I can't close fullscreen maps when I click them in articles. Any ideas? I can't click the cross and can't use escape, literally the only way to get back to the article is to refresh it. Tested on firefox safe mode without extensions. It works fine on Chrome. And Also, I can close maps on Wikivoyage, specifically GPX maps, instead of GeoJSON as on Wikipedia. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 13:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This page needs refereeing, as it has been frequently edited recently in the wake of Helene, with most of the edits being less than constructive or even outright vandalism. I've made several unsuccessful attempts to ask for increased protection. I may have been trying to use an outdated request portal, but for whatever reason the info I've supplied on the form won't "take". -- HelpMyUnbelief (talk) 20:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the portal/form? Nardog (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]