Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flag of the Republic of China/archive1
Good article. Very informative. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 00:01, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
- References, please. Jeronimo 07:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Object. I feel that the prose in this article is not up to snuff. The lead section, particularly, is not terribly clear. The material is interesting, but I don't think this quite meets the criteria of "brilliant prose" quite yet. --Eudyptes 23:32, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Support. (I've just tweaked the text a little.) -- ALoan (Talk) 13:51, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Thank you for the changes. I withdraw my objection and am now a neutral (I have a slight uneasiness which stops me from becoming a support, but I don't think I can specify it, so will withdraw my objection and let others decide if it is FA standard or not). jguk 00:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Object As Eudyptes says, the lead section is not clear: I think it can only be understood by someone having some familiarity with the history or current political situation of Taiwan. The last clause of the lead section is particularly vague: don't tell me to remember something I don't (necessarily) know. In fact, looking at the article as a whole, it assumes knowledge of Taiwan/ROC/Kuomintang/History of China throughout. It also uses jargon without explanation: eg under 'History', the jargon word 'canton' is used without explanation. The article should be able to stand alone (albeit with cross-references). Some of the longer sentences could also do with shortening. The first sentence of the second paragraph under 'History' is particularly convoluted. Finally, the last sentence of the article seems to have been added as an afterthought: it is not integrated into the text.jguk- I really don't see how any of this can be made much clearer without reproducing the whole mess already present in the linked articles. We've linked both political status of Taiwan and Flag terminology (for canton) in the article. Explaining the whole damned and complex situation would take up the whole article and cannot be done. This is the beauty of wikipedia. Confused readers should be sent to the links so I don't see your point. I suppose a few minor clarifications can be made, though. I expect "canton" to be in the vocabulary of an educated reader. If we used "upper corner of the flag", it would look dumbed down, in my opinion and more fit for the Simple English wikipedia. Do you mean the last sentence or the last clause being vague? I've dealt with the 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph in history and expanded on the last sentence. --Jiang 08:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I've rewrote the lead and put parenthesis after canton. Any other jargon? --Jiang 08:49, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I'm afraid. I don't think the article makes sense without a brief description of ROC being (or not quite being) Taiwan as part of the lead section. Kuomintang? Pan-blue and pan-green? Three bits of unintelligible jargon in the lead section? (I shouldn't have to two different article to understand one sentence in the lead section.) Indeed, the whole lead section implies a knowledge of the Taiwan/PRC situation that is beyond me (and I thought I was reasonably knowledgeable about international politics). The last bit of the lead section (beginning with "if one remembers") even makes clear that you have to have background knowledge in order to be able to understand the article! I'm sorry, but this is NOT a standalone article. It does not yet explain its jargon, and I still strongly oppose it becoming a featured article in its current form. I hope, however, that it can be re-edited succinctly so that I may change my vote at a later date. jguk 22:21, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)- I made a couple minor changes. I understand how "pan-blue" and "pan-green" can be unfamiliar and have removed it from the lead, but the fact that the Kuomintang was/is some political organization should be basic knowledge, just like I shouldn't expect you to be confused if I mention the Communist Party of China or the British Liberal Party. It was a major player in world history and is given sufficient coverage even in the very poor American high school curriculum (10th and 11th Grades). Will calling it "Nationalist Party of China" be more self-explanitory? History books usually use "Kuomintang." The "remembering" part (I've changed it) isn't the best phrasing but refers to the text earlier in the lead which descibes the flag as being used in mainland China and the mention of immediatly after- "a Republic that only acquired Taiwan in 1945 and moved its government there in 1949" -is meant to explain the "ROC being (or not quite being) Taiwan". I urge you to rewrite it so you (and people with similar background) can understand it because I find it difficult to tell how obvious this has to be to make it understandable. From the lead we can deduce 1) the flag is used in Taiwan and represents the ROC 2) the PRC regards the ROC as a defunct entity and thus opposes any symbols of a defunct entity and 3) there are pro-unification and pro-independence groups in Taiwan who dont agree on the issue because the flag was not designed in Taiwan and first flew there only in 1945. This is the conflict in a nutshell...what knowledge needs to be implied? Please provide quotations to make clarifying easier. --Jiang 00:06, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I've edited to clarify that the KMT are the Nationalist Party of China. The lead looks pretty clear to me now. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:39, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Support - I know very little about Taiwan and China (err... they don't like each other) - but the lead section was informative enough for me. Pan blue and pan green being the only confusing terms, but explained by wikilinks--ZayZayEM 14:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Support (I worked considerably on the article). I've made an attempt to address the objections. Anything left? --Jiang 16:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Support. Good work :) Zerbey 18:18, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Support now, but two remarks: 1) I would still like to see an offline reference (or when not used, see also). 2) What are the exact colours used (many countries have this specified in a law)? Or are the colours just "red and blue"? Jeronimo 18:28, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Support. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 20:40, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
- Support - Xed 09:45, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)