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DEViANCE was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was no consensus.

Hacker clan. Big deal. Google search for deviance "hacker clan" brings up two hits. RickK 09:23, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

RickK, upon initial inspection of the article I would have had to agree with you. I've since re-written the article in case you want to change your mind. Although "criminal", this is undoubtedly a noteworthy organization which has made a severe impact in the gaming industry as-is now being illustrated. —[[User:Radman1|RaD Man (talk)]] 16:22, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Eye-roll inducing. Gamaliel 09:29, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Please. Delete. Stellertony 09:32, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non-notable, petty leet criminal group. jni 09:34, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Ambi 09:38, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. No evidence of notability. Andrewa 10:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is not a "hacker clan", it is a warez group. The article in its current form is poor, but the organization in question is very notable. A google search for deviance +warez results in over 30,400 hits. —[[User:Radman1|RaD Man (talk)]] 15:42, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • The article is being rewritten. —[[User:Radman1|RaD Man (talk)]] 16:28, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I must Abstain as I can have no neutrality as a former member. But i do think it should probably stay with a bit of a rewrite. Alkivar 18:55, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: An informal, unverifiable, lot of people who are not bound together by anything other than avowal, who do not meet in person, who merely pass software titles around (illegally violating copyright) is not a subject for a stand alone article. In the article on hacking or warez, a sentence like "Many groups, such as DevIance, ViperScorpion44, etc. have circulated warez informally." If there is no identifiable "there" there, there's no way to talk about it. Geogre 19:58, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Perhaps they should be mentioned there, and not linked? If there's no way to talk about Fight Club, then Fight Club shouldn't have a stand alone article. That's what I'm getting at. Some old secret organizations have articles, but that's because we deduce what they thought from historical record (Rosicrucianism and Prester John and the like). When we're dealing with ongoing, ephemeral, transient-membership groups that exist only because people say they belong to it, and yet which are so decentralized as to have no meeting point, no set of beliefs, no unified plan of action, what is there you can say about it, except "people say they're part of it, and people want to shut it down?" Geogre 22:23, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I think I see what your getting at. The warez scene at large is full of "ephemeral" groups yet we cannot deny they do harm to software companies. I think their actions and the political reactions to them make them worthy of inclusion. As far as transient, you could well say the collection of alumni to a college is transient as well, yet those are large groups that are firmly established. Fraternities are the same and they're included on Wiki. As for no meeting point, what constitutes a meeting point? A location in the physical world? or does a centralized chat server and room count? It could be argued that Wikipedians as a group are decentralized and have no meeting point, unless you look at online being a valid "meeting point". But thats just my opinion. Alkivar 23:07, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Substantial improvements have been made to this article since it's inception. However, Alkivar, can you pull up any info about this group being raided in law-enforcement busts? If it has then it has some measure of notability from that, and may deserve an article of its own. If so, keep, otherwise delete as warez-kidde dreaming - rernst 00:47, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • weak keep, as it's borderline and the article has been significantly improved since it was vfd'd - rernst 13:46, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • working on finding more information on the bust. the groups Fairlight and DrinkOrDie were also raided around the same time in Operation Fastlink and Operation Buccaneer. When i can find a public website with information i will post. Most of my information is first hand (from friends who were raided) so not really a valid source according to Wiki. Alkivar 05:12, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Can only find conclusive link that 1 member of DEV was raided, although I personally know of 4 others who were. [1] to quote (emphasis mine):
BUSTED: HiTech666 (ex-PWZ/ex-FTS/ex-Razor 1911/Myth/Deviance/RTS, Montreal, Canada), jozef (RogueWarriorz, Canada), Elisa (EGO, RogueWarriorz), Bierkrug (RogueWarriorz), Lord Hacker (RogueWarriorz), Axxess (RogueWarriorz), Waldorf (RogueWarriorz), Demonfurby (RogueWarriorz), Dr Infothief (RogueWarriorz), doodad (pop), tenkuken (dod), eRUPT (author of ruptbot, dod, miami), doc-x (dod council, miami), heckler (TiL), zielin, sui (tfl/wlw), hackrat (wlw/razor/dod, california), shark (wlw/razor/dod; RatzHole siteop, Australia), thraxis (not busted; but raided -- 700 cds and computer; risc, pgc, dod, queensland, Australia), maverick (from skidrow, not from omega; dod council), sony, bandido (razor, dod council, risc council), eriflleh (dod council, philadelphia), bigrar (christopher tresco 23 y/o, dod council, risc, ex-MnM, ex-PSF (Proper Stuff), boston), avec (former fts, rts, rise, former DOD council, razor), buj (cracker; dod council, former rts senior, razor, former corpgods leader, ex-PGC, Durham North Carolina), forcekill (dod, turku finland), radsl (dod, popz founder, oregon), chevelle (dallas), billyjoe (austin), ievil (dod, razor, an ircop, had retired already, Arnvid Karstad), superiso (inferno; got raided), ^stealth (oregon), BaLLz (CSR)
Alkivar 05:36, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. The current version of the article shows notability, I think... --L33tminion | (talk) 02:43, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Hey, I've actually seen this group's name before. On, uhh... a friend's computer! Yeah, that's right. A friend's computer, when he was downloading, uh, Stuff. -Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 05:17, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep: The article should be expanded to make it more useful, but it should be kept.
    • Comment left by IP 67.164.96.200 at 17:18, 26 Nov 2004. Please log in for your vote to be counted. —[[User:Radman1|RaD Man (talk)]] 03:46, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, I think the group is notable enough. --Conti|✉ 15:20, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
  • Very, very weak keep. It really needs to establish documented notability, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that it can. It seems to me that the whole warez scene is so undocumented and based mostly on rumor and bragging on IRC, that the only evidence of actual notability tends to come from government crackdowns. - Lifefeed 15:47, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Heard of them, and used their stuff. Of course, living in a warez-tolerant country like Russia has to do with that :) Grue 19:01, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • D313373. —tregoweth 19:20, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, leet criminal group. --[[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 18:32, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, This is information, regardless of the touchy topic it is on. Wikipedia should keep all information. —Goosey 8:32, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep There are not links to piracy or warez... it´s just talking about it... so it´s ok to stay.--Mark the Echidna 01:08, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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