Talk:Duchy of Normandy

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Poor commentary in 'Norman Duchy' section

Hi guys. The passage beginning: "One interpretation[who?] of the Conquest maintains that England became a cultural and economic backwater...." is a little spurious. To argue England was a 'backwater' at any point from 1066 onward is silly; England's contribution to the history of the Church (mostly thanks to the Irish monks) was vital. It would also have made Henry I laugh to hear that he didn't really care about England when he had truly gone native and considered himself very much part of the life of the English. Even Rufus would have found the suggestion absurd - he needed English money to pay off his brother Robert, Duke back in Normandy. As with all things, the truth is far more dull - the Norman court had to balance its responsibilities to BOTH regions equally whilst maintaining separate domains. Hence Duke Robert and his brother King Rufus spent their lives fighting each other and then helping each other against their younger brother Henry, while simultaneously continuing to rally English warlords to their separate causes. The reign of Henry I, far from making England a "backwater", made it a beacon of order and progress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.77.39.58 (talk) 23:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this whole passage needs either to be rewritten or citations found for the passage in its current form. I'll aim to do either soon. SamWilson989 (talk) 01:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping things separate

I've tried to sort out the material on the two pages to keep the list of Dukes of Normandy (and info about the claims to the title) separate from Duchy of Normandy, which I think is a better place for the history and culture of the Duchy. Hope this is useful. Man vyi 13:05, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

Imported and adapted some text from Norman Conquest. Man vyi 11:45, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

A map would be helpful. Does anyone have one in the public domain? The Jade Knight 06:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I found a map, but I do not know how to link to it

but here is the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Normandy_map.png thebadseed 00:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The map is of modern day Normandy, not the ancient Duchy, which extended as far as to be just 20km shy of Paris at one stage.Jatrius (talk) 12:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After English Rule

Who ruled the Duchy of Normandy after the English Kings were forced out? Emperor001 (talk) 19:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to French Wikipedia, it became part of the royal demesne, i.e. it was ruled directly by the king of France. Scolaire (talk) 15:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the article accordingly. Scolaire (talk) 16:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fact it was the duchy of Normandy who ruled England, not the reverse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.66.146.209 (talk) 10:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To simplify : the duchy of Normandy ruled England between 1066 and 1204. The king of France ruled the Duchy of Normandy between 1204 and 1419. England ruled the Duchy of Normandy between 1419 and 1449. The king of France ruled the duchy of Normandy again for a short time before suppressing it (but not the Norman exchequer and then Norman parliament). The French Republic suppressed it definitly in the 18th century. Too sad. Nortmannus (talk) 01:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Second paragraph

The second paragraph of the article contains two significant errors as written: First, the fiefdom of Normandy did NOT "originally encompass" the "province" of Neustria, which contained vastly more territory than that occupied by the Normans, and was roughly co-terminus with what was later called 'West Francia'. Second, the current Duchy of Normandy is NOT "now divided between territory in mainland France and the Channel Islands". The two Regions of Normandie on the mainland are the sovereign territory of the nation of France. There is NO part of the French mainland that is subject to, or claimed by, the British Monarch. The current Duchy of Normandy consists solely and entirely of the territory in the Channel Islands under the Bailiwicks of Guernsey and Jersey. - StevoDog21 (talk) 20:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. Go ahead and be bold. Scolaire (talk) 11:09, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have never edited before, and I will have to study the editing notation before I can do so. This my suggested rephrasing of the second paragraph, if you think the wording and grammar is good: "Originally composed of a northern portion of the province of Neustria centered around Rouen on the Seine, it was later expanded by conquest southward to include the areas of Evreux and Alencon and westward into Breton territory, eventually roughly corresponding to the two Regions of Haute Normandie and Basse Normandie of the modern French Republic, plus the Channel Islands. All former mainland territory is now part of France, and the Duchy now consists solely of the Channel Island Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey, which are Crown dependencies of the British Monarchy. The British sovereign is the current Duke of Normandy." - StevoDog21 (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds great! If you can edit the talk page you shouldn't have to study too much "notation". Just make sure anything that's [[linked]] stays linked. And you could add links to Rouen, Seine, Évreux, Alençon, Haute-Normandie and Basse-Normandie. Note I have changed some of the spellings, in line with the article names. Happy editing! Scolaire (talk) 22:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and if you happen to know exactly where that info is to be found, it would be good to add a citation in the form: <ref>Joe Bloggs, ''History of the Duchy of Normandy'' (1999), Oxford, p. 111</ref> Scolaire (talk) 22:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That will do nicely, thank you. Scolaire (talk) 08:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

End Date

Hi, I have recently added the end date of the duchy in the descriptor box at the side, I interpreted this as being when the Duchy was Formally abolished after the french revolution. However the dukedom had been in French royal possession since 1204 does this constitute an abolition date? Finally the British Monarch still claims to be the Duke of Normandy (as a justification for the British ownership of the Channel Islands) does this mean that the Duchy has never been abolished? Any thoughts on the correct date? --Redadder123 (talk) 16:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all the British monarch does not claim to be the 'Duke of Normandy' (at any rate, were the Queen to be Duke of Normandy, she would be Duchess of Normandy, seeing as she's er, a woman.). A common misconception. The title of 'Duke of Normandy' was abandoned in the 1259 Treaty of Paris (1259) by Henry III, and has not been used by any of his descendants. Secondly, Britain does not 'own' the Islands, they are independent of the UK (but are not sovereign) only represented by Britain as regards external representation. They are not a British colonial possession nor a part of the UK itself. A law of the UK parliament does not apply to either Guernsey or Jersey unless specifically stated. The two islands do not constitute any notional 'Duchy of Normandy' that does not exist; the Islands are divided into the 'Bailiwick of Jersey' and the 'Baliwick of Jersey', and the British monarch does not hold any title in regard of the islands (like for example, she does as regards Canada, where she is quite separately 'Queen of Canada'), though of course, it would be within the royal prevogative for her to do so.

Please see here: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/royalstyle_uk.htm#Normandy

and here:

http://www.jerseylaw.je/publications/jerseylawreview/june99/le_rouai.aspx

Furthermore, the Duchy of Normandy was granted several times to members of the French Royal Family after Philippe Auguste confiscated it from the English monarch in 1204. However, to quote the article itself:

"In 1465, Louis XI was forced by his nobles to cede the duchy to his eighteen-year-old brother Charles, as an appanage. This concession was a problem for the king since Charles was the puppet of the king's enemies. Normandy could thus serve as a basis for rebellion against the royal power. Louis XI therefore agreed with his brother to exchange Normandy for the Duchy of Guyenne (Aquitaine). Finally, to signify that Normandy would not be ceded again, on 9 November 1469 the ducal ring was placed on an anvil and smashed. This was the definitive end of the duchy on the continent."

-However, the Parlement of the Duchy was still in operation right up until 1789 Revolution.

The title of 'Duke of Normandy' was granted to Prince Louis-Charles, son of Louis XVI, but this title was purely titular (at any rate, he was a minor), he did not bear the title after 1790 and has not been granted since.

The fact that the Duchy was united to the French crown in 1204 doesn't mean it was abolished either, as was attested to its being granted to members of the French Royal family after 1204; it just became part of the French royal demesne after this date, but it continued to exist whilst it was held by the King, it just had no Duke, and could demonstratively be granted again at any time. However, the Provinces/Duchies of France, along with feudalism itself, as well as all noble titles were officially abolished shortly after the French Revolution (but before the declaration of the Republic in 1792) by Royal Decree of Louis XVI in 1790 and replaced with departments, so we can reliably state 1790 as the definitive end of the Duchy. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 14:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Banner of Duchy of Normandy

I have change the banner to it's actual form. Maymichael2 (talk) 04:09, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Flags?

Aren't these flags and coats totally anachronism? Bertdrunk (talk) 23:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like it.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Current usage

A false statement that the title is used today by the monarch of the United Kingdom had been reinserted into the opening paragraph, with no citation. The falseness of this is explained earlier on this Talk page with citations. The title is only used informally, and all formal usage by the governments of the Channel Islands and the UK is "Her Majesty the Queen" (and now, "His Majesty the King") with no reference to the title "Duke of Normandy". It is basically just used in toasts. Mauls (talk) 11:51, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction and becoming ‘part’ of the UK

The article's introduction talks about the Channel Islands becoming 'part' of the United Kingdom. The islands have never become part of the United Kingdom, they are 'Crown Dependencies'. The below is from the article regarding crown dependencies. I suggest that the introduction is amended to remove the statement that they are, or have become, 'part' of the United Kingdom as this is factually incorrect.

"They are not parts of the United Kingdom nor are they British Overseas Territories. They have the status of "territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible", rather than sovereign states. As a result, they are not member states of the Commonwealth of Nations. However, they do have relationships with the Commonwealth and other international organizations, and are members of the British–Irish Council. They have their own teams in the Commonwealth Games. Each island's political development has been largely independent from, though often parallel with, that of the UK, and they are akin to "miniature states with wide powers of self-government". Cunobeline (talk) 06:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]