Talk:List of people from Sardinia

Untitled

This article is a bit suspicious. Who's "famous" and who's not? Why do so many of the "famous" people not have articles of their own? Brianjd 08:32, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC) I agree. I came here to do a project and it barely got me any info.:( I think that there should be links to the names so we know that they are real people.

I don't know if Juan Domingo Peron should be included on this list, as he was Argentine of Sardinian ancestry. Because he was not born in Sardinia, I have not included him on the list.

About Peron & famous people

In reality, nothing is given for sure about his life. In Argentina there are no precise data about him and it is even debated his real birthplace. There is a lack of info. According to some scholars, his real surname would be Piras, a Sardinian surname changed later into Peron. There are over 9,000 link about this debate, try writing "Piras Peron" on google. To know more go to: http://www.piras-peron.it/

You must consider Sardinia as a small island, so some of the people illustrated are not so famous out of the island, or as we usually mean. For example, "amsicora" was also known as "Ampsagora", but there is nothing about Ampsagora on the net. Just on books. This does not mean he never existed, of course. Nick 14:13, 2007 Jan 7 (UTC)

continuous deletion of some personalities from the article "List of Sardinians"

There are two users that constantely vandalize and erase the work of members that are trying to increase and improve this article, the fact that many personalities haven't yet own article doesn't mean that some users, without any kind of scruple, could cancel them, because the missing articles about sardinian personalities will be started in the future. This is an article of Wikipedia entitled "List of Sardinians" not a category like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_from_Sardinia so putting names of famous people from Sardinia though they haven't yet an article that speak about them is not wrong! Daygum (talk)

mi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daygum (talk • contribs) 17:19, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

It is not vandalism; it is following our guidelines. Specifically, see WP:LISTPEOPLE. In a list such as this one, all names must either be bluelinks (in which the linked article has sources that support the claim of Sardinian origin) or they must have sources here that support both their origin and their notability. The deleted names did not meet these criteria. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Daygum!

Please retract your "vandalism" charge, as I requested at David Eppstein's talk page, a few minutes after you made it there. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:05, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

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Vandalism and summary cancellations

this canadian user https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vaselineeeeeeee is cancelling and vandalizing continuously this article, assuming that people with sardinian ancestry born abroad can't be listed here, despite is underlined "This is a list of famous people from or with origins in the island of Sardinia." This user though doesn't know anything about the biographies of the personalities enlisted in this article, without any respectful reasoning with the other members, is demolishing the work and the contribution lasted for years by other users. Can anyone block the article, please? Saitek780 (talk) 01:02, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

@Saitek780: Thanks for the attacks. I deal a lot with "people from X" articles actually. Just to let you know you are above WP:3RR and it is you who could be reported and blocked. As I said at your talk page which you removed, see List of people from Sicily#Notable people of Sicilian descent by birthplace. It is not common practice to state people of descent to being FROM that region or city. It is common to list people who are not born there but live most of their life there or work for a large part of their career. This is drastically different from people of descent. People of descent are not actually FROM there. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:09, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

All Lists of people by nationality and ethnic group in wikipedia includes also people born abroad but with an ethnic relation. You haven't created a separated new paragraph including "Notable people of Sardinian descent", you have eliminated dozens of names vandalizing an article. Saitek780 (talk) 01:18, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

@Saitek780: Did I say it had to be about North America? Most of the people I removed are Italians, yes, so you could organize the descent list by region in Italy for example. But logically speaking does it make sense for people who are of Sardinian descent to be listed in an article of people who are actually FROM there? This isn't an article about people who have Sardinian descent, this is an article about people who are from there. Someone could be of Sardinian descent but may have zero connection with the region. Perspective: would it make sense to list an Italian Canadian, born in Canada, on a list of people from Italy, even though that person has no connection to Italy by native birth or by work, or some other significance that would make them actually from there? No. That's why we have List of Italian Canadians specifically for descent. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:25, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

"All Lists of people by nationality and ethnic group in wikipedia includes also people born abroad but with an ethnic relation." Where are you getting that info from? I've never seen a peoples list like that. I've only seen people actually born there, or people who have spent a large part or formative part of their career in the region. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:27, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if you are kidding me or are you speaking seriously? Look that it doesn't exist only the list of sicilians in wikipedia. These are random Lists of people by ethnic group and nationality that i have just found in Wikipedia (as i have said they include also people not born in their homeland, but ethnic related) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Croatians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Moroccan_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catalans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Basques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwegians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinians Saitek780 (talk) 01:40, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I hate to quote this as I don't necessarily like the guideline, but WP:Other stuff exists, although if some sort of agreement can be reached for consistency, I'd help with the other pages. Those pages seem to be of smaller countries, so may not have been subjected to stringency. You don't see ancestry at List of Italians, List of Portuguese people, List of Canadians etc, that state "This is a list of Italians, who are identified with the Italian nation through residential, legal, historical, or cultural means, grouped by their area of notability." This seems to be a much better guideline to go off of. Logically, including people of descent in these articles doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I'm wrong. I think if these people were to be included, they shouldn't be part of the same list as people who have a stronger connection to the region. That's why I'm suggesting something like at List of people from Sicily for ancestry. Maybe some input from people who deal with these types of articles. @Iryna Harpy:, @IronGargoyle: Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:57, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, Saitek780, you would do well to listen to Vaselineeeeeeee as regards personal attacks, as well as understanding what vandalism means. So far, you have been treated in good faith on the understanding that you're not an experienced editor, but please heed the gentle warnings you've been given as we are all WP:HERE to create a better encyclopaedic resource.

Yes, I am in agreement with Vaselineeeeeeee as to these 'list of people from X' articles. The criteria for these lists is badly defined, and there are hundreds of them (thousands, actually, when including 'list of X people [who live/lived; were born in, of Y descent; etc.] in country Y' style list articles: i.e., List of Chinese Americans). Wikipedia is made up of volunteers and, yes: anyone can edit; that does not mean that the content of the articles and lists conforms to policy or guidelines. I'm constantly coming up against neglected and 'under the radar' articles which are in desperate need of cleaning up. This is of particular importance when we are dealing with lists compiled dealing with biographies, so please read WP:BIODD - the cardinal rules for biographies - and check to make certain you have verifiable, reliable sources to back up any content you think is relevant... even more particularly when dealing with living persons. Please stop treating Wikipedia as a battleground. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:09, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

why don't you use the same policy for the others lists of people which i linked? I'm waiting for the same determination, why should only this list be eliminated? Why does nobody has created problem before (this article was created years ago)? What is your problem? I attend wikipedia for years and unfortunately attitude of people like you are not rare, people who think to be the wikipedia's sheriff. I would like inform you that wikipedia is not your personal dictatorship, but a free encyclopaedia. There are hundreds of lists like this in Wikipedia, that use the same identical method, you will be legitimate to operate cancellation in this list when also all the other existing lists will be subjected to the same rules and policy.Saitek780 (talk) 18:58, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

First, I'd be careful of WP:3RR as you could find yourself blocked no matter if it is right or wrong. I understand that you've shown me some pages where in the lead they do say the lists include people of ancestry as well. The issue is that they're incorporated with the rest of the main list and there was no way to distinguish who is a native and who is of descent because it was not written beside their name, unlike this article is was easy to pinpoint since beside the names of descendants was listed that their parents were from there. So unfortunately, it would be very long to go through the other articles as it would take clicking each person to find out. I agree that we should have consistency between articles on Wikipedia of similar topic, so if there was a faster way to remove those names on the other pages, I would, because I still think it isn't correct to have descendants on these pages. I wanted to get input from some other more experienced editors to see if my judgement was sound. So far, one is in agreement. Of course one or two isn't the whole community, so you could raise this at Wiki project Lists, however I don't think there is much activity there, which is why I just pinged a couple editors. There may be those other articles that mistakenly included ancestry, but there are others that I've shown you that do not, and frankly, this should be the correct way, and since it was easy to find and remove those people from this article, that's what was done, and will be done, because I can guarantee you will be blocked if you continue to revert on first instance per a battleground and per WP:3RR. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

This article follows the same rules of the other lists of people existing in Wikipedia, as i shown in the previous links, so i would like know why should be only this one cancelled if also in the other lists are enlisted people born abroad but belonging to the ethnicity or nationality mentioned?Saitek780 (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I just told you why. Is there any other logical reason why people of ancestry belong on people FROM a certain place? You're not going to see people born outside Milan being listed on List of people from Milan just because they have a father that's from Milan. That's silly. Do we have people of ancestry being listed at List of people from Calabria, List of people from Veneto. Not that I can see. It just doesn't make logical sense if they have no real connection to that place. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:33, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Sardinians are a distinct ethnic group, not people born in one italian region, if you don't understand this difference is not my fault and as i said large part of the other lists of people created in wikipedia use the same methods used in this article, unlike those ones linked by you. When will wikipedia apply the same rules i will agree with you. Futhermore anyone has renamed this list in "list of people from Sardinia", it was originally named more correctly "List of Sardinians". Saitek780 (talk) 19:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

It's not really that different. Let's say I'm actually born in Sicily. I'm a Sicilian. I move to Veneto and have a child, and that child spends his whole life in Veneto. Is that person really from Sicily or even Sicilian? No. He is Sicilian BY ANCESTRY. There is a big difference. Or he can be classified as a Sicilian Venetian, but he is not Sicilian by definition. The same can be applied Sardinia. The same can be applied to me as an Italian Canadian. I'm not a true Italian as I have no connection to it other than by ancestry. But if I were to get Italian citizenship, that would make me Italian by definition. Do you see that difference? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:52, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

This is why I also propose to add those ancestry names to a separate section of the article that list them of ancestry. Would you be even open to that? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:54, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I have renamed this article as it was originally created. Saitek780 (talk) 19:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

The name makes no difference. Moved back. Whether you say you're Sardinian or from Sardinia, it makes no difference. And you are not even trying to see another point of view, completely disregarding anything logical though process that is brought up. If you're born somewhere else and still have no other connection to Sardinia other than ancestry, you're still not Sardinian. Italian is also an ethnic group. If I'm of Italian descent born outside of Italy and have no other connection to Italy, I'm still not Italian by definition. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 20:06, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

So i presume did you cancel dozens of names from this article, without consulting any other member, because you know and you have studied all the personal biographies of the people listed here, to claim that they haven't any connection with Sardinia? This is illogical, because it's not true....and as i said more and more times lists of people in wiikipedia use the same method used here and here it's specified "this is a list of famous people from or with origins in the island of Sardinia." Why are you claiming your point of view only in this article and not in the hundreds lists of people existing in wikipedia realized with the same method? Why should we apply different rules only to this article, if nobody has objected anything in the past years? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saitek780 (talk • contribs) 01:33, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

If you're listing them as having a parent that is from Sardinian, without mentioning they've worked there or live there now, we can assume that's their only connection. I'm not saying we should only apply this to this article. What aren't you understanding? This is the first article I saw, so I attempted to correct it, and tried to see if I could on the other pages you listed as well but we can't look into hundreds of articles, certainly not just one person. I know that's what it says in the lead, which I've attempted to change, but it doesn't mean it's right? What makes your opinion any more right than mine? We go by WP:CONSENSUS, so I will try and bring this issue up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Lists to see if any other project members have opinions so we can establish some consistency here. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:49, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

• This list is for people actually from Sardinia (born there, grew up there, or moved there as a permanent resident for a non-trivial span of their life). It has nothing to do with ethnicity, only human geography. Someone born in, say, Canada of Sardinian ethnic background does not belong on this list. Someone of, say, Irish and Serbian background who grew up in Sardinia does belong on it, even if they have no Sardinian ethnic connection. We don't use titles like "List of Sardinians" in any case where it can be confused with an ethnic label, for the very reason that it will be confused with an ethnic label. We do not use "people from X" lists or categories for mixed-up ideas like "people from or with an ancestral connection to X", ever. Doing so makes the page title a confusing lie, and the exercise is a thrice-forbidden mixture of original research, PoV-pushing (of a racialist sort), and topical coatracking.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Why do you continue to deny the reality of the facts? Why do you deny that in the other "list of people" existing in wikipedia are listed also people with ancestry and background from the place mentioned? Why do you continue to deny that in wikipedia doesn't exist lists of people based on ethnicity? example: why has nobody already cancelled the list of Basques??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Basques Why has nobody changed the title in "Lists of People from the Basque Country"? Why don't you delete all personalities who are not born in the Basque Country, who are shown in that list? Please tell me the double standard who you are using, because it's difficult to understand at me.Saitek780 (talk) 04:07, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Look at the talk page Candlish has nominated the move. This should remove your notion that we are only picking on this article. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:11, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

I've created a separate section for people with Sardinian ancestry, following the Sicilian example.--L2212 (talk) 21:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I suppose this is fine; it's better than having them in the mix of everyone else who really belongs on the main list. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:48, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 21 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: retain the current title, per the discussion below; there is no consensus to move the page to the title List of Sardinians at this time. Please note that although it was argued that the "article was renamed 'List of People from Sardinia' months ago", the move referred to actually took place 2.5 years ago, so List of people from Sardinia is the stable title for this page. Dekimasuよ! 21:53, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

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List of people from Sardinia → List of Sardinians – This is a procedural RM. Someone has suggested that the shorter name and broader scope is more appropriate. It would also cover people of some Sardinian ethnic ancestry, regardless where they are actually from (born, grew up, moved to).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:05, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK, and per WP:CONSISTENCY with the rest of our "People from X" lists and categories. We studiously avoid commingling human geography and ethnicity. I listed this at RM because the discussion to date has been a circular argument between two parties, and this tie needs to be broken. For some additional background on why things like "List of Sardinians" are a bad idea, see the essay WP:Race and ethnicity (or the top part of it, if you don't need the embedded history lesson which is mostly about "race" not "ethnicity"/"ancestry"/"heritage").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment and oppose Would it cover ancestry though? If you're born in Canada for example and don't have any connection to Sardinia other than ancestry, you're still not Sardinian, you'd be Sardinian Canadian. At List of Italians and List of Canadians for example, I still don't think I see anyone of ancestry only people "who are identified with the Italian nation through residential, legal, historical, or cultural means, grouped by their area of notability." This is a much better description of people who should be included. People who have an established connection other than ancestry. I don't think it being a country vs region should make a difference; it has the same reasoning behind it. I don't think the title makes a difference here, but prefer the current title. See more detail in discussion above. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

  Correct, unless the Sardinian-Canadian person moved to Sardinia as a permanent resident and thus independently became a Sardinian. E.g., Stana Katic is a Canadian-born actress with long US residency, now listed as Canadian-American in our article (which seems a bit iffy as a one-word label, but that's another matter), and of avowed Croatian Serb heritage. She does not (and should not) appear in the list at the ethnicity article Serbs of Croatia#Notable people nor in List of Croatians. I do find her inappropriately added to List of Serbs, and that article is next on my RM chopping block; it's a huge pile of OR and PoV-pushing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:05, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Original name of this article

This article was renamed "List of People from Sardinia" months ago, but i remember it was originally created as "List of Sardinians", infact it includes not only notable people born in the island of Sardinia, but also people born outside but fully or partially ethnic sardinian. I ask to rename it and come back to the original title, cause the misunderstandings occurred after this change. Saitek780 (talk) 03:57, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

The title wouldn’t make a difference in the people who are included in my opinion. If you’re born in Canada but have Sardinian ancestry for example, you still aren’t Sardinian, you’d be Sardinian Canadian. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:03, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Your opinion is personal and in contrast with wikipedia, if you want to change the rules, change all lists of people existing in wikipedia, not only this one. This article is in line with the other wikipedia's lists of people. Why are you using double standards and aren't you deleting also the other lists? Saitek780 (talk) 04:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Yup that’s what we’re doing now just for you. List of Italians, List of Greeks, List of Basques move requests etc. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:17, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

More to the point, we're doing it because the existing titles are an original-research and PoV-pushing factory.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

What the title originally was is irrelevant. WP is not based on a principle of "whoever named it first gets to keep that name".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:53, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. I was being a little snarky. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 05:04, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

The title is relevant because "list of people from Sardinia" means people born in Sardinia, on the contrary "list of Sardinians" is referred to a whole ethnicity (so also to people with sardinian descent born out of the island, large part on the italian mainland, so in the same country). In addition as i said more and more times, the person who deleted dozens of names here, hasn't studied the single biographies of the personalities listed, to establish that people with sardinian ancestry haven't any relation with their homeland. And again why do you use different standards, if this list follows the same rules of the other ones existing in wikipedia? last but not least why have we to mantain a list including only people born in Sardinia if it's already present the category people from sardinia which includes only people born in Sardinia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_from_Sardinia ? Saitek780 (talk) 15:31, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

We have categories so we can WP:Category: "provide navigational links to Wikipedia pages in a hierarchy of categories which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse and quickly find sets of pages on topics that are defined by those characteristics." We also have Category:People of Sardinian descent. List of Sardinians will not include people of descent, it makes no difference, people of descent are not Sardinian by the human geographic definition. Also, the names I deleted said the only connection they had to Sardinia was through a parent, if it was of some other more significant means, I assumed it would be listed, but it was not. I did check Marco Materazzi and Goffredo Mameli. Mameli does state "At the age of seven he was sent to Sardinia, to his grandfather's place, to escape the risk of cholera, but soon came back to Genoa to complete his studies." although there is no source anyway, and the amount of time spent in Sardinia sounds trivial. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:40, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wally Schirra from Sardinia ?

Xx236 (talk) 08:11, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Nope. Removed, added to ancestry section. Once again, he is only of descent, he has no other formal connection to the island. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:14, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

The list is poorly sourced.

I would expect some explanation of Sardinian nationalism.

The list is biased, it quotes only two criminals. Compare Sardinian banditry.Xx236 (talk) 06:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

If the sources can be found at the linked page, it is fine. But yes, this list has been subjected to some extensive additions, as you can see from the discussions above, some of which should not be here since ancestry is not generally included - which is why a separate section was created as a compromise. If you want to add missing people from Sardinia, who are actually from there, go for it. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:39, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Does a military unit belong here?Xx236 (talk) 07:06, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Military unit? As a whole? I don't see that, but probably not. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:51, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

There is even a section Mercenaries, soldiers & troops. Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

This list isn't for Sardinians only. It's for any reader, who ask what is so special with Sardinia and doesn't obtain any answer in the very short text.Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Removed brigades as they are not people. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:33, 27 September 2018 (UTC)