Talk:Shilling

On a Danish discusion-forum link title I found a reference to this article, refering to the fact that the shilling wasn't issued untill 1548. I will not question that, but only remark that, to my knowledge the shilling was used as a figure many hundred years before that - but only as a way of counting prices (which would then be paid in the only "real" coin - the penny). I am sorry, but I do not have any links support this - do anyone know if I am right?

Well - if I am, then this article might confuse people to think that the concept of the shilling only existed after 1548, which would be misleading.

I've added the note about the alternate (modern) meaing of the phrase "to take the King's shilling" and updated the description of the phrase to "cut someone off without a shilling" to make use of the present tense. I'm under 30, from Scotland (although I now live in London) and am very familer with these phrases and regard them as being in current usage, particularly in Scotland (though I would estimate they are more commonly used by older members of population). I'm not sure how common they are across the rest of the country though, both phrases do seem, anecdotally, to have dropped out of current usage in southern England. FridayUK 02:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Question

I don't think it's mentioned on this article, but how many shillings equal 1RS OF INDIA

US$1 equals £0.57 (57p) at the moment, so that makes it 11.4 shillings in US$1. MJSchofield 17:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

You are using a modern exchange rate for a defunct currency unit. It would be equally accurate to say that as, for most of the 19th and earlier twentieth century £1 = $4, therefore $1 = 5/- (I am old enough to have been taught how to write amounts in "old money" at school). 5 shillings was sometimes nicknamed a dollar.

"11.4 shillings", never! There were never decimal divisions of a shilling. 57p = 11/5d (approximately). TiffaF 15:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary entry makes quite clear that "shilling" is a very old appellation for coins of various denominations. From the sixth century onwards, a Gothic cognate was used in rendering the Latin term "solidus." Coins called shillings were in use on the Continent and among the Germanic kingdoms in Britain, including Mercia and Wessex, with varying values. With the Norman Invasion, the coin called shilling came to denote rather uniformly 12d., i.e. 1/20th of a pound sterling (See OED) On the Continent, in the Holy Roman Empire, the coin, though of often widely different value, was often considered 2/3 of a Rhenish guilder/gulden.

I am interested in the exchange rate in late 19th century and early 20th. I made User:Chochopk/Latin Monetary Union unit, and according to various calculation on the precious metal, 1 GBP = 4.3 - 5 USD. So this question is for TiffaF: Is there a source on your number? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

http://eh.net/hmit/exchangerates/pound.php list the rate as fluctuating between £1 = US$3.62 (1812) and US$6.48 (1869) between 1900 and 1940, but mostly around US$4.70 or US$4.80 (US$1 = 4/2½d).

Under the Bretton Woods system, £1 = US$ 4.03 from 1945 to 1949

My grandparents generation remember $1 = US$4, from before the days of floating exchange rates, but most of the period 1800-1940, a rate of £1 = US$4 may have overvalued the US$. TiffaF 16:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Shillings and Marks

Does anybody know how many shillings were in a Mark, or where I could find such a conversion? I'm trying to make a conversion from Elizabethan England. Thanks 193.1.172.138 13:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Per my recollection and Mark (money), 160d. (two-thirds of a point or 13 shillings and fourpence). I think it's confused on the Scots Merk though. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a million, Angus. That figure fits in perfectly with the figure of 13s 4d which I got later. I never heard of a 'point' so I'll keep an eye out for that now. Thanks again. 193.1.172.138 15:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops, two-thirds of a pound. Sorry. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This page isn't that great, i apologize. I feel horrible about it too.

Rewrite please

Well more than one-half of the text of this article, as of 19 March 2007, deals with varient issues of English shillings minted prior to the Commonwealth. Now I know England invented the shilling, but the coin was used for more than 300 years after that point in history, and variations of this coin were minted in a wide variety of Commonwealth countries, and this article badly needs to be completely rewritten. 12.147.59.132 15:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Vikings had the skillingr first, from which the English shilling and Irish scilling derive. Article is far too Anglocentric. EamonnPKeane 10:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It actually quoted two myths... that it came from "skell" meaning ring, when the concept of calculating divisions of the currency in "skilling" has been in Old Norse since Old Norse writing was first written. Also the abbreviation referring to "solidus" is not provable, as the coins between pennies and pounds are many and varied, I'd say the latin was well and truely forgotten; the idea of dividing the pound into 20 came from the Norse, apparently, while before that they'd have referred to doubloons and guinea and so on... it seems no coincidence that the abbreviation for shilling is s, as it starts with s...

220.233.121.43 (talk) 11:46, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

The article as it stands, sites two versions for the derivation of shilling, one in the first paragraph, and one in the article, which should be changed. 82.7.46.52 (talk) 22:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

the article recorrect and rewrite please 154.115.222.18 (talk) 22:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Fussy typography stuff

Not to be picky--but I believe that what is meant by "(sans-serif) apostrophe" is really "single prime," is it not? --AlanH 12:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That is the idea I was getting, too. I think it might be safe to change it. jr98664 06:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't find any reference anywhere about it being either an apostrophe or a prime. Can anyone cite a source for this "triangular shape" symbol being used as a shilling symbol? -- abfackeln (talk) 02:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

In other typography trivia, the slash is apparently evolved from the long s. Not sure if that deserves mention but I found it interesting. -- abfackeln (talk) 02:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

United States?

I am editing a book on 1820s U.S. and there is a reference to shillings. Is this true? Until when were they used? When did dollars and cents take over?

This May help [1] Vera, Chuck & Dave 14:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Pics

The picture is labled a scottish shilling, how can you tell? A Scottish shilling dated 1938 has a thistle and saltire on either side of an upright lion, am afraid this is the only example of a Scottish shilling i own although. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moustan (talk • contribs) 21:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Current value

The article states, 'a shilling today would roughly be equivalent to 5 pence'. This statement is misleading. In monetary terms a shilling is exactly equal to five English new pence, or twelve old pence. The word 'roughly' is therefore both unnecessary and misleading.

On the other hand, if the intention is to give an approximate idea of a shilling's purchasing power, it would much more than five pence can buy in 2009. Not only that, it would be essential to specify the date as the purchasing power of a shilling was greater in, say, 1830 than it was in 1965. --Chris Jefferies (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Dates are essential!! I'd hoped I'd found a bit of relative sanity in the statement fixing the value of a shilling 'equivalent to a cow in Kent- or a sheep elsewhere"...

But that's backwards insane: A sheep, a smaller animal, penned "elsewhere"- say, 2 weeks distant at the Scots border- will inherently be worth much less than a large, living dairy animal located closer to population centers ("Kent" is marketing distance to London). This is not how coinage works.

The entire article is one of the most hideous aggregations of faux-historic nonsense I've ever seen. Still- rather than lingering shame, the article deserves a humane & quick-death. Something more sensible will inevitably fill the void- it's that bad. Where is a template to vote for WP:Article-euthanasia? Hilarleo ^Hey,L.E.O. 03:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Question - "Bob"

Why was the term "bob" used to mean 1 shilling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.24.167.51 (talk) 13:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Direct contradiction between associated pages

At end of the introduction on this page, it states "In the past, the English world has had various myths about the shilling. One myth was that it was deemed to be the value of a cow in Kent or a sheep elsewhere."

However the associated page Shilling (British coin carries a direct contradiction: "Originally, a shilling was deemed to be the value of a cow in Kent, or a sheep elsewhere." So which true? Kildwyke (talk) 05:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Hog

The alternative nickname of hog is mentioned, but not explained. At one time, the reverse of the shilling bore the device of a boar's head (presumably a reference to the heraldic device of Richard III). From this, and indicative of the comparative worth of the coin in those days (sharply in contrast with the effects of Devaluation), derives the expression going the whole hog. Nuttyskin (talk) 15:56, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Two articles primarily about the British shilling

Do we have a WP:FORK violation? In addition to this article, we also have Shilling (British coin) – so in essence we have two articles covering the same thing. Should this article become a simple disambiguation article, pointing to East African shilling, British shilling and AU/NZ/IE etc shillings if such exist? John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Etymology

Before an edit war breaks out, let's see what a WP:RS says. If someone would like to disentangle it [above my pay grade], the 1933 edition of the OED says

Shilling (ʃi·lin). Forms: 1 scilling, scylling, (-inge), 3 ssillinge, 3-6 schillinge, 4 ssyllyng, 4-5 schillyng(e, schelyng(e, shulleng(e, schullyng(e, 4-6 schiling, shill-, shyllyng(e, inge, silling, 4-7 schilling, 5 schyllynge, shylynge, schilenge, silyn, 5-6 sheling, -yng(e, shellyng(e, 6 scheling(e, schillengge, shealinge, shyllyn, syllyng, 4- shilling.

[Common Teut.: OE. scilling masc. = OFris. skilling, skilleng, schilling, MDu. schellingh (Du. schelling), OS. scilling (MLG. schillink, schildink, mod.LG. schillink, schilling), OHG, scilling, skil link, schilling (MHG., G. schilling), ON. skil lingr (Icel. also skilding, Sw., Da. skilling), Goth. skilliggs:-OTeut* skillings. Adopted in OSlav. as skilleat, in Sp., Pr., Fr. as escalin (13th c. F. eskallin, mod. F. also schelling), It, scellino.
The Teut, word is referred by some etymologists to the root *skell to resound, ring (see SHILL a and v.) Others assign it to the root *skel to divide (whence SKILL v. SHALE sb., SHELL sb., etc.); some have conjectured that the word originally denoted one of the segments of fixed weight into which an armlet of gold or silver was divided, so that they might be detached for use as money. In the bilingual documents of the 6th century, Goth. skilliggs corresponds to the L. SOLIDUS; in medieval Germany the Teut. and the Latin word were commonly used to render each other, but in England the correspondence appears to have been only occasionally recognized until Norman times.

The value of the 'shilling' in continental Teut. countries has varied greatly; its relation to the penny and the pound has also varied, though a widely accepted scale was 1 pound or libra = 20 shillings or solidi = 240 pennies or denarii See SCHELLING, SCHILLING, SKILLING 2.]

1. An English money of account, since the Norman Conquest of the value of 12 pence or of a pound sterling. Abbreviated s. (= L. solidus: see SOLIDUS 1), formerly also sh., shil.; otherwise denoted by the sign /- after the numeral

— The Oxford English Dictionary Vol. Ix (1933), page 695

𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Etymology (s)kelH- As (s)kelH- (“cut, separate”) or as a derivative of Shekel

Considering recent archeology found 14th-12th century Phoenician trade networks in England; it would be more credible that proto-german shkel comes from shekel a currency that is actually confirmed as being traded in the region by Phoenician traders in the 12-14th century BC England.

"Ancient tin found in Israel has unexpected Cornish links". CNN. 19 September 2019.

"Shillings, gods and runes: clues in language suggest a Semitic superpower in ancient northern Europe". The Conversation.

Patrick.N.L (talk) 14:56, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@Patrick.N.L: The Carolingian monetary system origin for £sd is well documented and widely cited, so we would need a rather more convincing preponderance of reliable sources to give space to this conjecture. Maybe the German Schilling (coin) (from which the English word is derived) could in turn be traced back to proto-german shkel? This could be a research opportunity for someone (and it is perhaps more credible as a cognate than the accepted origin, Latin: solidus). But right now it is a WP:FRINGE idea and so is WP:UNDUE. But if it gets serious traction, it can and should be added. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC) revised --17:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman Indeed it is still just from a research paper of two linguists so probably still fringe. Patrick.N.L (talk) 07:53, 23 March 2023 (UTC)