Talk:List of free improvising musicians and groups

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To the twit who keeps deleting musicians presumably because he's simply never heard of them, here's the talk page from Free improvisation pasted in. quercus robur 16:33, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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I've moved this from free music - see Talk:Free music for one of the reasons. I also think that "free improvisation" is the more common term. The two might seem to mean different things, but as far as I know, free music is improvised by definition anyway, so there shouldn't be a problem (somebody else may know better of course). --Camembert

Restored Brotherhood of Breath & Sisterhood of Spit- these were actual bands with strong free improv influences, and were not put in as 'spurious' or 'self serving' references. quercus robur 22:00, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Copied from 65.3.169.133? 's talk page;

Re Free improvisation on exactly who's authority do you decide who is 'insignificant' or 'self serving'? All the musicians & performers listed exist or existed, to delete groups such as Brotherhood of Breath? (who featured Louis Moholo, Chris McGregor, Evan Parker, and recorded the seminal live at Willisau album or Iskra 1903? (who were Barry Guy?, Derek Bailey and Paul Rutherford, and released at one album on the Duetsche Gramaphone label, and I believe, at least one other) as 'inisigificant' shows breathtaking ignorance of the free improv scene and it's history. quercus robur 19:00, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I deleted Joel Garten from the paragraph detailing relatively well-known free improvisers. I know free improv is fairly marginal stuff, but consider these figures: Garten has no allmusic.com listing, and scores about 20 google hits, verses about 7,600 hits for Keith Rowe, 62,000 hits for Derek Bailey, 17,000 hits for Peter Brotzmann, or 56,000 for Evan Parker, who all have extensive discographies and reviews on all music. Anon, 10 Dec, 2004

I don't recall the page being titled 'List of WELL KNOWN free improvisers'??? quercus robur 16:37, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Removing names/groups without Wikipedia articles

One way to weed the list is to remove names from the list that don't have articles -- red-linked, unlinked or external linked names -- as a way to determine notability per wiki standards. However, since many of these groups may be obscure but notable in this niche genre, such a cut and dry approach might be unpractical. But it seems there needs to be a threshold for adding to this list when there's no easy way to verify the add. Perhaps providing a link to a reference in a reliable source associated with this genre that clearly shows a connection? I wonder if this comes up in other music genre lists and how the editors are dealing with it without having to debate every entry without an internal link? Flowanda | Talk 18:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that nonlinkage would be a good criterion for removal from the page, though there are a few exceptions (I was amazed to see Phil Minton didn't have a page--apparently someone nominated it for speedy deletion & it was uncontested--so I just created a new Minton page).

There are some names on this page which I've never heard of & I've been reviewing this stuff for years! I think sometimes it's just people trying to promote themselves. --ND 22:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And on Christmas Eve too! I looked for an archive, but couldn't find one either...probably didn't have that much info to begin with if it was just deleted without discussion. I did get a good laugh from the visuals from Roger Turner's new career. :) Flowanda | Talk 04:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Urk--looks like a disambig. page is needed for Turner.... --ND 00:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Roger has an article...I can add stuff if someone else starts one. Flowanda | Talk 18:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A second suggestion. How about deleting names from this list if they have no wiki page AND they have no EFI page? (I'm referring to this site.) Otherwise notable people like Radu Malfatti &c would get deleted. --ND 00:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A Wikipedia list is just that...a list, so I think the only real useful items on this list are going to be the artists with an article...or should have an article and don't. I don't know enough to know who's appropriate, and I don't like to create articles (no real reason why not), but I like adding/finding sources to verify notability or helping edit copy. Redlinked names that stay might be a good to-do list reminder and a way for informal collaboration...this genre doesn't have a wikiproject as I remember, but I'm sure there are other experts out there. Flowanda | Talk 18:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that having vs. not-having a separate wikipedia article are very good criteria for notability. Not only are there several genuinely significant free improv musicians without their own article, but there are also plenty of less-significant musicians with and article. I'm sure Killick Eric Hinds and Joel Garten are fine young people, and they may be great musicians, and they've got their own wikipedia articles that read like homemade press releases...but that doesn't make them more significant in terms of the history of free improvisation than, say, Ab Baars, Mat Maneri, Wilbert de Joode and Torsten Mueller. I'm not advocating for the removal of the more obscure musicians; it all depends on whether you want this to be an an exhaustive list of free improvisors or more specifically a list of "important" or "notable" free improvisors. Also, I think it might be worth eliminating some of the musicians/groups who may have played free improv on occasion, or are heavily influenced by it, or incorporated elements of it here and there, but are hardly what one would consider "free improv groups". I deleted Sonic Youth from the list for this reason; even though they may occasionally "improvise freely", they're generally not free improvisors; I think a similar argument can be made for Captain Beefheart. If you wanted to include any and every musician who ever did anything that was arguably freely improvised you'd have to include all sorts of inappropriate stuff; a case could even be made for The Greatful Dead. Following the link to some of the other musicians on the list, such as "MATH", they're listed as "Musical Improvisation and Experimental Rock", which is great and all, but I'm not sure it means they should be on the free improv list or not. 76.204.97.204 (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]