Talk:Leopold II of Belgium

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 5, 2005, February 5, 2006, and February 5, 2008.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

RM, Leopold II of Belgium → Leopold II, Not moved, 7 January 2023, discussion
RM, Leopold II of Belgium → Leopold II, Procedural close, 16 January 2023, discussion

Incomplete / Missing Citation?

It seems to me that Citation #16 (Rappoport, p. 268.) refers to a work that isn't cited anywhere else in the article, and I haven't been able to track down what "Rappoport" book this refers to. My suspicion is that the author is Leon Rappoport, but that could be wrong and I haven't been able to find a book that refers to the subject matter on its 268th page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sqldatabunny (talk • contribs) 21:18, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His own efforts

Editors have been removing from the lead the statement that the Free State came about through Leopold's own actions. This historical fact is described and referenced in the article, and is important in establishing Leopold's own responsibility for what happened there. Why are people removing it from the lead?

Wiki Education assignment: Race, Law, and Politics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dorbwe (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Dorbwe (talk) 16:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change of flow to be consistent with the French language article

I would propose to reformat part of the second paragraph with the information referencing his being a “builder king” to be moved to the end after the paragraphs on the Congo free state similar to the French language version

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9opold_II_(roi_des_Belges) 94.109.188.163 (talk) 15:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds plausible to me, feel free to do it. Gawaon (talk) 09:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

The Lead isabout the overly long and has far too much about the Congo. The Lead should be a "Short description is a concise explanation of the scope of the page."

I would suggest we remove the last three paragraphs andheck that all the info therein is included in the appropriate section.

The third paragraph could stand as is but might benefit from a rewrite.

Any thoughts? Lukewarmbeer (talk) 12:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the lead is currently somewhat longer than it should be. I think the last paragraph could be removed altogether. The two paragraphs before it could be shortened and combined into one, but they are too relevant to be completely removed. MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests that leads should have at most 400 words – it shouldn't be too hard to get there with a little trimming and copyediting. Gawaon (talk) 14:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shall we wait a little on any other thoughts and then probably give it a prune,

I appreciate the value of the content but the detail is (or should be) covered in the relevant section. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to pruning. But the lead needs to get across the following points: (1) He went after the Congo privately because Belgium was disinclined to join the rush to colonialism; (2) He won approval from the Berlin Conference only after misrepresenting his intentions; (3) His administration of the Congo Free State was a humanitarian disaster; (4) He became known as the Builder King for construction projects in Belgium funded largely by spoils he extorted from the Congo; (5) Belgium was so embarrassed by the Congo fiasco that it forced him to yield control of the Congo to the Belgian government; (6) He died without direct dynastic heirs, so subsequent Belgian monarchs descended from his brother Philippe.

To completely summarize the article, we would have to add that his posthumous reputation is being revised downward through the efforts of modern historians to crack the wall of silence that has protected him for so long.

-- Elphion (talk) 15:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All good but that is a lot of detail. Too much for the Lead - which should summarise the article. We can make sure all of that detail is properly represented in the article itself.

How about something along the lines of:

Leopold II^[a] (9 April 1835 – 17 December 1909) was the second King of the Belgians from 1865 to 1909, and the founder and sole owner of the Congo Free State from 1885 to 1908.

Born in Brussels as the second but eldest-surviving son of King Leopold I and Queen Louise, Leopold succeeded his father to the Belgian throne in 1865 and reigned for 44 years until his death, the longest reign of a Belgian monarch to date. He died without surviving legitimate sons; the current King of the Belgians, Philippe, descends from his nephew and successor, Albert I.

Leopold was the founder and sole owner of the Congo Free State from 1885-1908, a private colonial project, which he never visited, undertaken on his own behalf as a personal union with Belgium. His rule of the Congo Free State was characterised by ruthless exploitation of the territory for his personal gain by means of forced labour, torture, murder kidnapping and other measures that led to one of the first uses of the term "crimes against humanity"

He is popularly referred to as the Builder King (Dutch: Koning-Bouwheer, French: Roi-Bâtisseur) in Belgium in reference to the great number of buildings, urban projects and public works he commissioned. These works were facilitated by the fortune he amassed from the ruthless exploitation of indigenous men, women and children using the mercenary Force Publique. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's just 229 words – too short I'd say. MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests 250–400 words as a good length. Longer articles, like this one, will generally tend to have longer leads too. So I suggest we try trimming this down to 400 words or a bit below, but there is really no need to get much below. Gawaon (talk) 09:43, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have trimmed the lead to around 380 words. I think it should be fine now. Gawaon (talk) 10:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. Much better! Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]