Talk:Tiger Temple

Image queuing

Tigers playing in the quarry

Tigers playing in the quarry

I'm queuing this image until there is enough text in the article to support it. — Chameleon My page/My talk 06:23, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The picture caption says "Tourists observing the tigers" and the article text says "they are led on leashes to a nearby quarry, where they can roam around freely. Tourists may observe this from some 10 meters away,". I think that's pretty clear. Not seeing what you're after, I'm restoring the picture. AxelBoldt 11:24, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, no. I wasn't referring to lack of info about that particular picture.

There was discussion about articles with a bad image-to-text ratio. I was bold and implemented this nascent policy. — Chameleon My page/My talk 12:30, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you consider that image important to the article, how about queueing another one here instead? Right now the images to the right and the images at the bottom overlap with my browser window size, which isn't that small. Wikipedia lacks images, however sometimes less is more - one or two represenative images are sometimes better than 5 similar ones. andy 18:36, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Unless arguments are offered to the contrary, I'll queue one image within a couple of days. — Chameleon My page/My talk 21:41, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Can anyone confirm that there has been an attack on a tourist? The FAQ page on the Tiger Temple website claims that there has never been an attack. I suspect that this sentence is missing the word 'never' or has come from an apocryphal source. --Stubish 05:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Last time I was there I asked a worker at my guesthouse if anyone has been attacked and she said that a French tourist had been bitten. Could be a rumour, could be true. However, the 'temple' is unlikley to report it (It's actually no longer classed as a temple as it no longer supports enough monks to qualify) as they are increasingly revenue-driven. Chuckygobyebye 07:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"will live out a life of non violence and, according to the Buddhist beliefs of the monks, be more likely to be reincarnated as a human in their next life"

Where is this from that they'll be reborn as humans? From the national geographic documentary, the monks say they believe the animals are friends family and other monks reborn as the tigers and other animals in the temple. humans are considered pretty low on the scale of being reborn, buddhism says human life is full of suffering.

Edit Summaries

Hey, there's a lot of edits that aren't being explained, can future editors fill in the edit sumamries or mark them as minor? Chuckygobyebye 07:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can certainly get closer than 10 meters to the tigers - my daughter Kayleigh sat on Skywards and appears on the latest edition of the magazine "Nanfa" (June 2007). These animals are truly remarkable and quite docile - if there had ever been any attacks on tourists, i certainly would not have allowed her to sit on one of them. This is truly a worthwhile project that certainly deserves more support. Sonia Kittle, Bangkok

Tigers Drugged?

I was doing a bit of research. I had not heard of this before, but some tourists think that the tigers are drugged. Is this a viable controversy? I haven't been able to find any thing worth referencing.

Here is a travel forum with opinions http://forum.virtualtourist.com/discussion-376907-1-1-Travel-0-0-Thailand-discussion.html Here is a thread that has an answer from the monestary... still nothing scientific, but National Geographic didn't mention a contraversy. http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=51&threadid=814487&messid=6926319&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0&from=1&showall=true

I want to visit there, but I don't want to support mistreatment of animals. 69.104.69.113 01:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

These folks heard about the temple and went there themselves as volunteers: http://www.tigertemple.co.uk/story.htm. They say the allegations that the tigers are drugged are completely false. The tiger temple website (http://www.tigertemple.org/Eng/good_q.htm) also says they're not drugged and explains why they seem tired when tourists visit (tigers hunt between dusk and dawn when it is coolest and are thus understandably more lethargic during the heat of the day). Of course, reading it somewhere other than on the official website or from someone who doesn't stand to gain or lose anything from telling the truth was a relief to me. Klandagi (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I know the people that volunteered at the temple http://www.tigertemple.co.uk/story.htm as I volunteered at the temple before, during and after their stay. I think that if they went back they would have a very different view of the temple. I also believe that when the truth comes out about the temple, that the people who support this moneymaking tourists trap will feel ashamed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Florence&reuben (talk •contribs) 02:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I just had a look at the http://www.tigertemple.co.uk and the volunteers are unhappy with the reports that are coming out about the temple. Klandagi have another look at the website now.

Tiger Temple disspelling rumors

There are lots of mistruths and half truths about the tiger temple littering the internet. Finally, I have had enough and have decided to educate those who wish to debate the value of what we are trying to achieve.

Are our Tigers drugged? To me this is a ridicules statement in itself. First and foremost we are a religious institution; secondly we have animals in our monastery. The idea of drugging our tigers goes against all that we stand for. Why are our tiger so docile? Our Tigers are socialized to people from a very young age. At one month we start to introduce our cubs to people. One of the monks sleeps in the cage with the cubs and tends to all their needs. So at a very young age our cats learn that people pose no threat to them. By about 5 months our cubs are desensitized to people.

Our technique for raising tigers has proven extremely successful. In a zoo environment tigers are kept in a semi wild state. No matter what enrichment is added to their enclosure they become bored= unhappy tigers. Our Tigers interact daily with staff and tourists. Everyday bring new adventures and Fun. Our tigers are never bored=unhappy tigers. For those who do not agree with this statement………unhappy tigers do not breed.

Why are our tigers breeding? In captivity tigers never fully become comfortable with humans, in an uncomfortable environment they will not breed. When a captive tiger is born most institutions rejoice at there accomplishment. Our tigers are comfortable with humans and happy. We do not have an active breeding program. Nor do we encourage breeding. Having said this we don not try to stop them when the whim hits. I for one wouldn’t want to go into an enclosure to try to stop this.

The saddest truth in all of this is most people come to visit us for no more than 2 hrs and form their opinions in this short amount of time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.113.111.182 (talk) 07:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• • • • Captive tigers are quite easy to breed in captivity. Hence, so many establishments have tigers. If you don't have an active breeding program why are there so many cubs being born. I'm guessing it's easy enough to have separate housing for males and females. The temple as had tigers long enough to know when a female is coming on heat. Keep males and females separate. If you are going to then say you do not have enough enclosures to separate them, why are you still breeding. Where are going to put the new cubs? If they are breeding in the canyon, then don't take females who are on heat down there. There is also such a thing as contraception. You could try using that. But then I guess the public want to see cubs, don't they. Cubs must bring alot of dollars. Also, where did the Asiatic Lion cubs come from? You can't tell they were orphaned as there are no Asiatic Lions in the wild in Thailand.Florence&reuben (talk) 06:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The last part of the article claims the temple is no longer charging and the tigers are living in large areas and can be seen from a Skywalk. So I looked up Tiger Temple in Google and came across this site: http://www.tigertemplethailand.com/about_tiger_temple_thailand.php. They have tours and even state "THE ENVIRONMENT :

The temple sees between 300 and 600 visitors each day. The entry fee goes to feeding the animals, and also to fund building a larger tiger sanctuary which will allow the animals to live in an almost natural environment. The temple is reforesting a large amount of land nearby ('Buddhist Park') to possibly release the tigers into the wild in the future. There are donation boxes around the temple for those who wish to help support the sanctuary.

The Tiger Temple practices a different conservation philosophy than in the west. As a forest monastery, no alcohol is allowed on site. Appropriate clothing must be worn by women, covering their shoulders and knees so as not to offend the celibate monks. No bright coloured [red] clothing, no sleeveless or strapless tops or shorts/mini skirts are allowed either. No shawls or sarongs for the upper or lower body should be worn.

HOW TO SEE :

The tigers spend most of the time in cages, being fed with dog food and washed and handled by monks. Once a day, they are led on leashes to a nearby quarry, where they can roam around freely. Tourists may observe this from some 10m away, and may even pet one of the tigers. So far, there has been one serious attack on a tourist. The temple collects donations in order to build a larger tiger sanctuary which would allow the animals to live in an almost natural environment all day long, with plans to release some of the animals back into the wild.

ACTIVITIES :

For a fee, visitors may join in the tigers' morning or evening exercise programme. No more than 20 visitors may do this at a time. The tigers are washed and handled by Thai monks, international volunteers and the local Thai staff. Once a day, they are walked on leashes to a nearby quarry. Originally they would roam around freely, but with the increase in visitors and the number of tigers, they are leashed for safety. The staff closely guide visitors as they greet, sit with, and pat the cats. The staff keep the tigers under control and the abbot will intervene if a tiger becomes agitated. Guests can engage in other activities with the tigers. These include bottle feeding tiger cubs, exercising adolescent tigers, bathing tigers, hand-feeding tigers and posing with sleeping adult tigers." And there are various tours on this site - all for a FEE: PRICE For all Private Tours Includes :

Pick up from your Hotel. Transport, Driver, Guide, Lunch & Gate fees for Tiger Temple. Vehicles are Modern High Top Vans with A/C, Television, Surround Sound i.e. fully loaded! Payment must be paid in advance to reserve you place. 2 People 3 to 4 People 5 to 6 People 7 to 12 People 4,050 Baht each 3,050 Baht each 2,650 Baht each 2,200 Baht each Appx $135 USD each $105 USD each $90 USD each $75 USD each

So why does it state the tigers on "Tiger Island" are roaming free or is this "Tiger Island" a different place then the Thailand Tiger Temple? (Ridelikethewind~enwiki) June 6, 2015

The lies and the truth.

How do you distinguish between the lies and the truth about the tiger temple? All you can do is look at what is being said and who is saying it.

Ask yourself why would people lie and what is there to be gained from lying. I think that the temple has the most to gain from lying. They are the ones that are trying to protect their livelihood. Think before you support this place. Do research and listen to everyones opinion. Try to think what this person has to gain from saying it.

Read the history from wikipedia. Why are you only allow to say good things? Why does everyone want to silence anyone who has a different side to this story?

Research, research, research. Talk to the Thai Department of National Parks, Care for the Wild International, WSPA and Bornfree. Listen to ex volunteers and tourists that have visited. Both sides of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Florence&reuben (talk • contribs) 07:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Enough is enough

The edit of "Update from a volunteer, December 2008 - current (January 8, 2009)" is blatantly a post from someone whose interests lie with the continued income of the "Tiger Temple" rather than the welfare of the tigers. A short amount of research very quickly reveals the terrible abuse -- both physical and mental -- that these animals are forced to endure. It is disgusting.

I understand that it is the nature of wikipedia that edits like the aforementioned are permitted, but it infuriates me that some prospective and credulous Tiger Temple tourist could come upon this wikipedia page, read that obvious marketing ploy, and actually come away from it thinking that there is lingering controversy regarding the abuse. There is no controversy: these tigers are abused. One's patronage and "donation" only prolongs the suffering of these tigers. Wikipedia should play no part in this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.17.187 (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I took off the bit about the tigers being allowed to walk around freely once per day. The tigers are chained and prodded whilst being pushed and pulled by keepers for ten minutes a day on their way from their cages to the tourist spot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.159.40 (talk) 23:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

anyone with a minimum of conservation knowledge can deduce some pretty convincing evidence from about the temple

THe animals are kept in cages that are too small - a Tiger needs about 20to 40 km@ in the wild Caging of these large SOLITARY animals leads to behavioural problems - these may be passive or aggressive but are unnatural - drugging could be used to make the animals more malleable. Tigers are by nature solitary creatures except when breeding and the presence of other Tigers nearby is a potential and permanent source of stress to them. the promised "enclosure" has not been forthcoming since 2002 or 3. For the eve increasing - and uncounted - population of tigers - t will be too small anyway. the tigers are fed an incorrect diet - the Monks believe that COOKED meat will instill a more docile temperament - there is no documented scientific evidence anywhere to suggest tis, but these carnivores require FRESH meat and all the nutrients associated with it. The temple was shut down by local authorities several years ago - but typically no-one could find an alternative for the tigers - so it has been left to drift on. Is it a zoo? - no not really - The temple was "Granted a zoo license" - well actually not for there own premises but for land next door. Breeding - the breeding program is undocumented and unregulated - it is feared that the Temple is producing HYBRID animals - these actually dilute or even destroy the gene pool for the regional sub species - there is NO WAY any of these creatures could ever be released into the wild in any circumstances - "Corbetti". the only use these newly bred animals have is for "shows" or sale as tiger parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khunwilko (talk • contribs) 06:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Been there, done that, my eyes don't lie

Hi,

I don't know if I am on the right channel here, but I am hoping I am in the right place.

My discussion is about the conditions and the treatment of animals in the Tiger Temple, Thailand. many of the "lies and truths" pertain not just to the Temple but are established facts about Tiger husbandry and welfare.....

I respect people's believes, always have done, always will; I respect people's points of view, always have done, always will. This does not however, ... make me like them. I have been to the Tiger Temple in Thailand, what made me go there was a documentary on the animal planet documentary about it showing how good they are at protecting tigers. I thought wow, got to go there and see the place for myself. I heard vague rumors of some bad stuff going on there. But I went anyway. I saw abuse: pulling a tigers tale and maneuvering it into position for a picture with a tourist, is not nice, I was not the only one who found this disturbing. The tail is is an extension of the spine after all.

Now for the workers, or volunteers who did this. The tiger would have had to be in a condition where he would not bite back. In fact all 18 tigers were having their, I quote 'nap time'. However, they were in a state far deeper than sleep. They were like in a state of unconscious, the same heavy sleep that animals/ humans are put under when they go for an operation.

It seemed very strange and suspicious. Again I can only reiterate what I saw. In addition to this it was 30-35 degrees C, there was no water for the tigers to drink (they couldn't drink in that comatose state anyway). Barely any shade and they were constantly being put in unnatural positions. I also went around the place, saw 2 cubs, again no water was given to them, bar a small bottle of milk, that was squirted at them in the face rather than fed to them. They were also right next to a watering pool, with a nice water fall, but their chains were on so tight they could barley stand up and walk. Now that is mean. Holding cells, that were bare, and evidence of cooked chicken as a feed (1 chicken), tell me thats enough food for a grown tiger, cages that were rusty and sharp for tiger transportation. Mini dump sites of sharp metal and waste. A very large heard of free roaming water buffalo, with a bull. If he wanted to charge, there was no stopping him. Safety for the people was very lax indeed. I have been there, I have seen what I have seen, my eyes don't lie. Thats when I started a cause on facebook: 'Ban the Tiger Temple' I have seen through the faced and therefore encountered numerous animals suffering. This could be a nice place, but the place is orientated around greed. So long this continues to happen nothing ever good will come out of this place, just more suffering. If you give a damn come join the cause, there are also some U tube videos, posted by someone who went there on a longer period, regarding a university thesis or something. Check these out, get the facts then decide:

Facebook cause: http://www.causes.com/causes/200187

<Sybelle Foxcroft><Behind the Cloak of the Buddha> U Tube mini documentaries: Part 1a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIwr4bRdOc&NR=1 Part 1b http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEVsaOZsQY SonjaWilderness (talk) 18:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Just return from Tiger Temple March 29, 2012

Just got back from Thailand and my wife and I visited the Tiger Temple for about 2 hours. I will tell you my observations. First of all, this is Thailand. They do not hide their commercialism like we do in the states with high entrance fees, expensive snack shops and fancy gift shops. There is a small market outside the temple with vendors sellilng all kinds of tiger temple paraphenalia as will as stations for instructions. The scene is FAR from polished. Like I said. It's Thailand. It does not appear to be associated with the Temple but I can't confirm this.

Upon entrance you are given a simple map. After that you are basically on a self directed tour of the grounds. It is true that there are no cages. All animals except carnivores (Bear/tigers) are in cages. The Bear cage was as large as any I have seen in the states. Had enclosed shaded and open activity areas. I saw horses, Ox/cows, peacocks, boar, and few other species roaming free. Personally, I though that was pretty cool. I would rather have that than all these animals in cages. Safety concerns were obvious but.....it's Thailand! I believe if you are stupid enough to try to give a wild animal a hug...you get what you deserve! I if your looking for safety and protection you won't get it here. That said all animals were VERY calm. Even when it was feeding time. (just as long as you have the common sense to get out of their way!)

We went to see the Tigers. 10-12 tigers were all in a small "canyon" area laying down. All were chained. The Head Monk supervising carefully. It was very organized and well controlled. One person firmly held you hand and led you to each tiger and directed you how to pose. Another person took your camera and snapped shots. Poses usually consisted of kneeling beside the tiger and resting your hand on the tiger's chest. In 2 poses you were given the tigers tail to hold while your other hand was on the chest. NO ONE was pulling the tiger's tail! It was gently held... I do not work with animals, however I do work at a large trauma center. I have lots of experience with interacting with people who are sedated. In my opinion the animals were not drugged. My impression was that they were very used to this human interaction, and they were very interested in napping! Could I be wrong? Yes. The tigers seemed well fed, absolutely not emaciated. They smelled very clean. I saw no evidence of abuse. Overall a pretty surreal experience. Is it a good idea to be hugging napping tigers? Hell no! But I did it anyway because I am a stupid American! I equate this to skydiving, another stupid idea which I did anyway(only once)!

Next we went to see the tiger cubs. Cute as can be. Certainly not drugged. Claws and fangs came out while my wife posed with it. Very playful.

I don't know about the claims about breeding, the Laos connection and if this is a big money grab. At the end of the day this was a Thai style zoo. Make any judgements you want. In my opinion all zoos should be destroyed in favor of protected sanctuaries. All of these animals should be free and free from us.

In that spirit, If I was a tiger or other animal and had to choose between this and a western style zoo, I would choose this place in a heart beat!

Lastly, I thought the staff was compassionate and very interested in the animals well being. Infact, the western volunteers were pretty passionate about these animals. There was a crazy Aussie fellow there that really impressed me.

In the end, the Temple is imperfect because it is not a true sanctuary where animals can run wild over thousands of protected acres. But I truly felt that it was more humane than any western zoo i have ever been in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.134.217.9 (talk) 21:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Khunwilko (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC)RELEASING TIGERS INTO THE WILD ?????? "The abbot of the monastery stated that the eventual goal was to breed tigers for release in the wild.[3]" - This is not possible. Firstly the uncontrolled breeding that takes place at the temple means that that is no genetic information about the 100 or so tigers. They may even be hybrids of different sub-species or interbred. This means that any animals released into the wild would pose a REAL THREAT to the existing population. it is also worth noting that at this point in time there has been no successful release of tigers into the wild, and attempts to do so are massively costly.14:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khunwilko (talk • contribs)

New controversy + biased edits

New investigative reporting shows that the tiger temple has speed bred tigers for sale in the black market http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160121-tiger-temple-thailand-trafficking-laos0/?source=NGComm There has also been some recent edits - images with captions showing a clear bias against the temple with words such as " tigers enslaved at the Tiger Temple in Thailand by people who call themselves Buddhist monks". This might mean other parts of the article are also quite biased, though I do not have the opportunity to look through it myself at this time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Movario (talk • contribs) 05:09, 23 January 2016 (UTC)